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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2006 : 12:15:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Why aren't you taking "the next steps," Michael? Why this extra preamble?
Assertaining the "nature" of these discharges, and the form they take is *not* a preamble, it's a critical next step. It is *the* single most important thing we might do. NASA and Lockheed can't even put forth a clear heat source for the corona, but using Birkeland's model, its really quite easy. There are "unknowns" of course, including the exact nature and physical structure of the electrical discharges through plasma. However explaining the coronal loops remains an enigma to the gas model theory as well.
As it relates to electrical current flow, and magnetic field flow through the plasma atmosphere, I would expect that the same physical priciples that may apply to gas model theory may also apply to a Birkeland model in the plasma atmosphere.
quote:
The articles I find on the subjects you've brought up in this post all seem to be talking about currents generated by the movement of magnetic domains "hundreds or thousands of kilometers" across (in the case of the solar corona) due to the magnetic fields moving through the plasma. I find no explanation of them based upon the idea that a current creates the magnetic field in the first place.
It's all interelated. Anytime we have current flow, we have magnetic fields. Plasma tends to align itself to magnetic fields. We are now faced with understand how current flows through plasma.
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And either way, since everything Wikipedia seems to have comes from a "gas model bias," how is any of this going to be diagnostic for your model? It's not like there are any solar scientists who're saying that MHD effects or Birkeland currents don't exist in the Sun. And I don't find any saying that a solid surface is necessary for these processes to occur.
From the surface up through the solar atmosphere, the relevant physics and math are still going to be based on plasma physics. I would expect the same plasma physics models that are postulated for gas model theory solutions to explain these coronal loops could certainly apply to a Birkeland model as it relates to plasma behaviors in the solar atmosphere.
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Of course, it seems pretty obvious that you haven't gotten around to stating your actual point here, so maybe I should be more patient.
Indeed. I think I'm going to take this one logical step at a time here. In essense we have already "agreed to" (if you can call it that) a primary heat source for the corona, namely the coronal loops. Now we need to understand what the loops are, why they are hot, and what keeps them hot for hours and even days at a time. Bruce suggests these million mile per hour events are due to electical discharges. Current flow would be a logical heat source and would explain the heat signatures we see. Dr. Alfven gave us some physical models to work with, based on plasma physics and Birkeland's model. Alfven and Bruce seem to offer us the best hope of explaining these loop events in terms of electrical current flow in plasma. |
| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/17/2006 12:48:49 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 16:28:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Assertaining the "nature" of these discharges, and the form they take is *not* a preamble, it's a critical next step. It is *the* single most important thing we might do.
You've already ascertained the nature of the discharges, since otherwise you wouldn't have a model to discuss. When I get around to asking, "Wow, Michael, how'd you figure all that stuff out?" then it will be time to walk me through your discovery process. Until then, I'm only interested in talking about how your physics matches reality.quote:
NASA and Lockheed can't even put forth a clear heat source for the corona, but using Birkeland's model, its really quite easy.
Then go ahead and use Birkeland's model to demonstrate the heat source.quote:
There are "unknowns" of course, including the exact nature and physical structure of the electrical discharges through plasma.
Then how can you possibly be bringing up MHD if you're not sure if such equations match reality?quote:
However explaining the coronal loops remains an enigma to the gas model theory as well.
Another tu quoque argument, and utterly worthless scientifically. I thought you wanted to stick to the science.quote:
As it relates to electrical current flow, and magnetic field flow through the plasma atmosphere, I would expect that the same physical priciples that may apply to gas model theory may also apply to a Birkeland model in the plasma atmosphere.
Fine, then you would agree that the current flow in the corona is due to magnetic domains within the charged plasma shifting about, and not due to an actual "spark." Otherwise, bringing up MHD was pointless.quote:
It's all interelated. Anytime we have current flow, we have magnetic fields.
How are their strengths related to one another?quote:
Plasma tends to align itself to magnetic fields. We are now faced with understand how current flows through plasma.
The MHD people seem to have it figured out, without invoking electrical "arcs" or anything else lightning-like at all.quote:
Indeed. I think I'm going to take this one logical step at a time here. In essense we have already "agreed to" (if you can call it that) a primary heat source for the corona, namely the coronal loops. Now we need to understand what the loops are, why they are hot, and what keeps them hot for hours and even days at a time. Bruce suggests these million mile per hour events are due to electical discharges. Current flow would be a logical heat source and would explain the heat signatures we see.
Actually, I asked you to calculate that for me, previously, and I will do so again. Current flow - as in a lightning bolt - would be a logical heat source if and only if we know enough about the processes going on in the corona to estimate the heat-generating parameters of the conductive material and the discharge itself, and ensure those estimates aren't absurd (like 2 Watts of generated heat creating million-kelvin plasmas). Until such premises are laid out on the table, the conclusion that it's "logical" to think that electrical current could be responsible for coronal heating is not supported.quote:
Dr. Alfven gave us some physical models to work with, based on plasma physics and Birkeland's model. Alfven and Bruce seem to offer us the best hope of explaining these loop events in terms of electrical current flow in plasma.
Only if we can get the causes and effects in the correct order.
(By the way, you're implying that Alfven built a lot of his work on that of Birkeland, and with Bruce's help. If so, he seems to be one real bastard of a guy, failing to credit them with anything when Alfven received his Nobel for his plasma physics work.)
Next post:quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfv%C3%A9n_wave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer
It would seem like these are the logical mathematical models we will need to apply here.
Why don't you tell me how they fit together into your model, Michael, and then actually apply them to the entire set of observations we have available? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 17:11:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
(By the way, you're implying that Alfven built a lot of his work on that of Birkeland,
Which he did.
quote:
and with Bruce's help.
Did I say that?
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If so, he seems to be one real bastard of a guy, failing to credit them with anything when Alfven received his Nobel for his plasma physics work.)
Are you just intent on being annoying now or what? How in the world did you get that rediculace strawman out of what I actually said? I must say, you're taking a lot of the "fun" out of having a scientific discussion Dave. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 17:24:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Are you just intent on being annoying now or what? How in the world did you get that rediculace strawman out of what I actually said? I must say, you're taking a lot of the "fun" out of having a scientific discussion Dave.
Holy fuck! I make one little aside which is supposed to be nothing more than amusing, you take it personally, and blow it up into a mountain of nonsense! And you're calling me ridiculous?!? It wasn't even a goddamned strawman, Michael, since it had nothing to do with your actual claims.
Where's your freakin' model, Michael? The science is there, and not in a small jest about the personality of one of the guys whose work you're citing (or rather not citing). Why the hell are you wasting both your time and mine getting your undies in a bunch, instead of focusing on the science? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 18:40:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
...rediculace...
I'm sorry, I can only see this word butchered so many times before I need to correct it. The word is spelled "ridiculous," as in subject to ridicule. There isn't a single "E" in it.
Now please carry on.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/17/2006 18:40:21 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 05:33:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where's your freakin' model, Michael?
It's almost like he doesn't want to talk about his model. I wish he would quit saying "Let's talk about science" or "let's talk about physics" and just start talking about his model.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:27:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
It's almost like he doesn't want to talk about his model. I wish he would quit saying "Let's talk about science" or "let's talk about physics" and just start talking about his model.
I've posted here now over 800 times. I've literally spent months of my time here talking about *Birkeland's* solar model furshur, and yet you folks refuse to even see this solar model as something other than "my" model. We've discussed everything from heliosiesomology to the cause of the patterns we see in running difference images, to the nature of electrical discharges through plasma.
Contrast this considerable effort on my part to the fact I can't get even a single alternative idea from you about what might be driving these million mile per hour events in the absense of electricity. I can't even get you people to recognize that Birkeland's solar model is bigger than 'lil ol' *me*.
Frankly I'm a bit burned out right now of all the foot dragging, cheap shots and useless diatribe that goes on here. I've also got a very full plate at work to deal with this week. When I feel like blowing some more of my valueable time here, I'll post some more, but not today. To be honest with you, right now I need a break from this place, and I don't feel particularly motivated to post here at the moment. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:54:25 [Permalink]
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So if I understand you correctly Michael, you have no solar model, you are simply discussing Birkeland's solar model. I didn't see where Birkeland said that the sun is an iron shell around a neutron star. I had always thought that was your model.
I will look at the pdf file you supplied on Birkeland again and see if I missed that part of his model. As I recall the file you supplied on birkeland talked about planets more than the sun, such as his model on the rings of Saturn being electrical in nature.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:55:38 [Permalink]
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| Smashes MM with the info hammer SMACK(they dont think birkelends model has jack to do with your ridiculous claim), therefor its your model. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 14:01:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
To be honest with you, right now I need a break from this place, and I don't feel particularly motivated to post here at the moment.
I'm not surprised.
By demanding that we stick to the science, you are calling your own bluff.
Indeed, let us do stick to the science. Science is not "It would seem like these are the logical mathematical models we will need to apply here," instead it is actually applying those models to observations, and checking their correctness. You've been doing lots of talking about various models, Michael, but you haven't shown us the results of your application of the models.
Once you are ready to apply the models you think are appropriate to all the observations and see if they match up, come on back and show us the results. Until you've got such results, you simply aren't ready to discuss the science of your own model, much less Birkeland's or Bruce's or Manuel's or anyone else's. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 07:03:19 [Permalink]
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Got some new issues that must be dealt with Mike,
(Sorry if this has been covered or dismissed, Im sure I get a pass for not reading all 100 thread pages.)
1) How big is this 'crater' on the Sun.
2) What type of mass and speed would be required to make such a crater
3) This extremely massive object must have hit the Sun before recorded history as such an object would be very visible in the sky
4) How exactly did this very massive object pass through the solar system and not effect the orbits of the planets.
5) How does this crater survive for thousands of years
6) How exactly does an object of this size make it past the million degree corona and dense atmosphere before it reaches the surface. (If anybody knows the answer to this one Id like to know for example what would happen to Jupiter if it went into the sun, would it mostly burn up before reaching the photosphere?)
Ill leave the glaring issue of your early universe claims once youve answered/ignored these issues. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 07:30:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
(Sorry if this has been covered or dismissed, Im sure I get a pass for not reading all 100 thread pages.)
Yeah, your questions were largely answered by the claim that the "crater" was actually formed (and destroyed a few days later) due to the electrical "erosion" of the "surface" by the "arcs." And/or it appears to change due to "lighting changes" as the loops move around. The "start" of the crater-talk can be found on page 3 of part 2. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 13:32:54 [Permalink]
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We got a mention in his Blog. Scroll down to the date 03/26/06 and read...
Despite our pigheadedness, he's more gracious in his comments on SFN than I expected.
(Sorry, Dave  )
I thinks he's good sport, even though he lack in the self-critical department. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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