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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 04/19/2006 : 16:26:26
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"Fossil suggests snakes evolved on land"
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/19/fossil.snake.ap/index.html
Must be keeping it under wraps....I can't find anything about it on line. Article states there's a write up in the Nature journal.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2006 : 06:08:28 [Permalink]
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Ah, vindication at last! I have long held that the ancestory of serpents were terrestrial.
I'll do a little digging and see what I can find on it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2006 : 12:22:24 [Permalink]
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Gonna have to wait on the Nature article, I guess. Meanwhile, to kill a little of the time, here's AiG's take on it:
quote:
With such a new claim, AiG researchers will need to devote some time to evaluate the Nature article when it appears. Meanwhile, here are some preliminary thoughts on the AP story:
Even if it could be shown that snakes at one time had legs, this actually fits within the creationist model. The loss of features like legs is a type of degeneration, which is the opposite of molecules-to-man evolution (which requires new genetic information for advancement)—see Beetle bloopers for background.
Researchers acknowledged that this snake crawled like the snakes of today. They have not proposed how it used its legs (their guess may be revealed in the Nature article).
Because some evolutionists may continue to claim that snakes “came out of the sea,” the land vs. sea controversy in the evolutionist community may still not be settled. Some evolutionists might argue for “convergence” (i.e., arguing that the legs on this snake are not due to a common inheritance with lizards—but, then, what are they transitions from?). Evolutionists may never agree on whether this new find is truly transitional.
We have noted before that supposed “legs” on snakes (see Leggy snakes) could be used for playing a role in mating (i.e., the appendages function as claspers, not as legs; also, see our article on whales that supposedly have been found with “legs,” A whale of a tale).
Those who claim that snakes are just legless descendants of other reptiles really don't understand their uniqueness. Snakes have a specially designed backbone, which is very different from other reptiles. For a lizard to turn into a snake over time, it would need special backbones. Snakes could not slither without these additions.
AiG is cautious about comparing this fossil snake to the serpent in Genesis 3:14. First, we really don't know much about the serpent's anatomy anyway. Yet we can offer a reasonable guess that it apparently was once able to crawl or walk; after the serpent was cursed, it was pronounced that “on thy belly shalt thou go,” suggesting that it previously moved using appendages.5 Also, this fossil probably resulted during Noah's Flood, an event that took place about 1,500 years after the serpent was cursed to crawl on its belly.
(hehehe) "AiG researchers," indeed.... 
Ham is wastijng his time and his congregation's cash with his 'museum.' Better he should go on tour with a minstrial show. The guy is hilarious!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2006 : 13:58:21 [Permalink]
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AiG was quoted by Filthy as having written: quote:
The loss of features like legs is a type of degeneration, which is the opposite of molecules-to-man evolution (which requires new genetic information for advancement)
What ignorant, dishonest twaddle! The Creationists are quick to accept evolution in the form of what they call "degeneration" because they think that kind of evolution can't explain humanity's descent from apelike ancestors. Even though the same article later mentions, "Snakes have a specially designed backbone, which is very different from other reptiles," the phony "degeneration" claim is made. Are apes "degenerate" monkeys, because they lost their tails? Clearly the new-found locomotion of snakes, as AiG unintentionally but fairly aptly worded it, "requires new genetic information for advancement."
Anyway, evolution is about species survival, not about any human's idea of aesthetics or "advancement." Snakes have done very well in terms of survival.
How was this evolving loss of legs a form of "degeneration," when the result of the proto-snake's newly-evolved body structure has allowed the snake clan to dominate so many niches for eons? With their special locomotion, legs only got in the way. I'm amazed at the good fortune of finding a legged snake fossil specimen at all, considering how briefly nature usually keeps biologically expensive but unneeded features and appendages. I doubt the legged snake was around very long.
Of course, the elephant in the room is the even greater absurdity of quoting scripture, even cautiously, as though it were biological authority.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/21/2006 14:42:10 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2006 : 15:03:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yet we can offer a reasonable guess that it apparently was once able to crawl or walk; after the serpent was cursed, it was pronounced that “on thy belly shalt thou go,” suggesting that it previously moved using appendages.
Oh, that's rich...."suggesting that it previously moved using appendages" - the bible does not say specifically, so why would they interpret that? It could have had wings or anti-grav glands. Or maybe it was made of concentrated evil so it just levitated through sheer will power. Is this a "biblical theory"?!?!
quote:
"Also, this fossil probably resulted during Noah's Flood,"
Evidence, besides the bible? I didn't think so... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/21/2006 15:04:25 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2006 : 16:49:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Anyway, evolution is about species survival, not about any human's idea of aesthetics or "advancement." Snakes have done very well in terms of survival.
They have done very well indeed, even surviving in the Candian Arctic
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2006 : 18:15:39 [Permalink]
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Y'all Swedes would be familiar with this one:
Vipera berus, the European adder, is the only serpent found above the Arctic Circle, as well as in more tolerent climes. It is a remarkable animal and there is space reserved for a couple of them at my place.
I have observed garter snakes emerging when I lived in VT. There was a hibernacula not far from my place, and the sight can't be appreciated from a mere picture. Fucking (literally!) snakes everywhere!
Edit: There is a certain mystery to these hibernacula: no juveniles have ever been found in one.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/21/2006 18:24:29 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2006 : 02:39:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Y'all Swedes would be familiar with this one:
Though we all are taught taught what they look like, actually catching a glimpse of them is rare. Vipera berus or "huggorm" (transl. striking-snake or biting-snake) is shy.
It is the most venomus animal we have in Sweden but it rarely, if ever, kills.
The closest thing next is a stinging jellyfish, bees, wasps and bumblebees, and one spider that is about as venomus as a wasp.
Then of course it happens every now and then we get "foreign guests" arriving in shipping crates, like Black Widows and such. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2006 : 05:18:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Y'all Swedes would be familiar with this one:
Though we all are taught taught what they look like, actually catching a glimpse of them is rare. Vipera berus or "huggorm" (transl. striking-snake or biting-snake) is shy.
It is the most venomus animal we have in Sweden but it rarely, if ever, kills.
The closest thing next is a stinging jellyfish, bees, wasps and bumblebees, and one spider that is about as venomus as a wasp.
Then of course it happens every now and then we get "foreign guests" arriving in shipping crates, like Black Widows and such.
V. berus is medically significant, but as far as I have been able to ascertain, there have been no verifiable deaths from it. And they are indeed, quite shy. It's the secret of their success.
The one pictured is, I'm pretty sure, a female. The males are considerably smaller and lighter built. Pretty, little lady, isn't she?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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