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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 12/03/2001 : 05:34:57 [Permalink]
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I've noticed that some people are using the term "homeopathic" when all they mean is "new age."
It's true, just because something is homeopathic, doesn't mean that it's water. It may, in fact, be a powerful herb only diluted slightly. However, for the most part, homeopathy means something that is total quackery.
Please don't throw science out because it's flawed.
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Homeopathic is based on the idea that you can treat an ailment by giving a highly diluted dose of an agent that causes the symptoms of problem being treated.
That's not how I think of it.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2001 : 23:36:17 [Permalink]
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But there are herbs that are helpful and that's where modern medicine comes from. There are treatments that one can practice on ones self without the help of a doctor to 'cure' some medical problems.
I once had a long talk with a doctor about alternative medicine. One of the things he told me was that about 80% of the patients he treated needed no intervention at all. That is, they were going to get well and didn't need him. The sickness would run it's coarse. He said 10% needed some intervention and the other 10% really need medical help. The point of this? Say you are in that 80% and you look for help by going to a Homeopathic Doctor instead of a regular Doctor, or just toughing it out. When you get better, which you will no matter what you do, you will think it was the homeopathic are what cured you. That is why anecdotal evidence for these kinds of cures are useless. The danger is if you are one of the 20% who actually need to see a real doctor. And the extreme danger is when you are in that 10% who need the real deal.
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I told you about Woodys doctor telling us to bring him back. That's happened to me several times too. I don't see any reason for an extra 'follow up' visit unless symptoms don't go away. Also many doctors have given me meds that don't work, I don't like having to keep going back if they don't seem to know what they are doing. Or if they do work, that's good enough for me. I don't need to go back to SHOW the doctor I'm better. Don't tell me they aren't making money from those visits
While symptoms may indicate a problem sometimes there are several illnesses that these symptoms may appear in. If the symptoms are not relieved by the first treatment, that diagnosis may be ruled out for another and the treatment may be changed. This is common. Doctors are not psychic. They look at symptoms and treat what those symptoms most likely indicate. Some illnesses look a lot like others. Science is not perfect but it's the best game in town.
Follow up visits can keep a reoccurrence from happening. Also, many people stop taking things like anti antibiotics before the prescription is up. This can cause bacterial immunity to the drug and be very dangerous. Yes, the Doctor makes money for the visit, but often it is a sensible precaution that may prevent relapse, or worse. I know you like to gamble, Snake. So not going back probably appeals to you.
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Excuse me but does that mean I can only be skeptical of alternative non main stream ideas and only causes that don't seem legitimit? Because DOCTORS are properly trained in estalblished schools one can't be skeptical of them?
Be as skeptical. Frankly though, this doesn't sound like skepticism. It sounds like cynicism.
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One word to you Kil, Thalidomide
Since the thalidomide tragedies, the FDA has been very careful about what it approves for a pregnant woman to take. It is terrible that that happened but it's also a lesson on how science works. New evidence and the drug was gone and new rules were set up for drug testing. It is now being prescribed to treat other things with a lot of success. By the way, bringing up Thalidomide reminds me of creationists harping about the piltdown hoax as proof that evolution doesn't happen. What they both prove is that science works. As I said, it's still the best game in town.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2001 : 04:31:12 [Permalink]
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The alternative practitioners are not keeping track of their failures and the deaths and injuries that result from their practices. Science learns from their mistakes and their successes.
As I've posted elsewhere, "Dr." Hulda Clark claims her program cures every disease for everyone.
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Since the thalidomide tragedies, the FDA has been very careful about what it approves for a pregnant woman to take. It is terrible that that happened but it's also a lesson on how science works. New evidence and the drug was gone and new rules were set up for drug testing. It is now being prescribed to treat other things with a lot of success. By the way, bringing up Thalidomide reminds me of creationists harping about the piltdown hoax as proof that evolution doesn't happen. What they both prove is that science works. As I said, it's still the best game in town.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2001 : 01:10:15 [Permalink]
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The alternative practitioners are not keeping track of their failures and the deaths and injuries that result from their practices.
WOW! I had to suddenly take Woody to the vet today and breifly discussed non trditional medican and that's exactly what he said.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2001 : 05:45:19 [Permalink]
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Snake, I hope Woody is okay.
Anja has a great vet. The woman never can remember who I am (even though I'm the one with the checkbook), but she knows the name of every animal she's seen.
I sort of see Snake's point. For some things, I really don't want to pump Anja full of drugs. Since Heidi died, Anja has been depressed, lethargic, and she's packing on pounds. I guess I could take her in and have her put on diet pills and puppy prozac, but we're going to try more diet and exercise first. However, if she had an abscess like the aforementioned dog, or was running a fever that baby asprin wasn't touching, I think she'd be in for a trip to Dr. Teets.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2001 : 09:20:44 [Permalink]
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This will sound very strange - but try wrapping a clock (it has to be the kind that ticks fairly loudly) in a towel and putting it in her sleeping area. It may calm her. Works with puppies when they are first separated from their litter. Something to do with the perceived heartbeat rhythm.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2001 : 15:23:39 [Permalink]
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This will sound very strange - but try wrapping a clock (it has to be the kind that ticks fairly loudly) in a towel and putting it in her sleeping area. It may calm her. ...
But make certain that the alarm's not set! 
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2001 : 18:57:43 [Permalink]
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One word to you Kil, Thalidomide
Since the thalidomide tragedies, the FDA has been very careful about what it approves for a pregnant woman to take. It is terrible that that happened but it's also a lesson on how science works. New evidence and the drug was gone and new rules were set up for drug testing. It is now being prescribed to treat other things with a lot of success. By the way, bringing up Thalidomide reminds me of creationists harping about the piltdown hoax as proof that evolution doesn't happen. What they both prove is that science works. As I said, it's still the best game in town.
Actually, thalidomide is a great example -- of how proper procedures in scientific medicine work to protect the public (that's you and me).
In the United States, there was no thalidomide tragedy. It was confined to England and parts of Europe, where the drug regulations were more lax. Here in the US, the FDA did not approve the drug for pregnant women, and there were no thalidomide-caused cases of birth defects.
However, consider what could happen here today. With the current craze for alternative medicine, and with congress foolishly allowing herbal remedies to skirt the drug approvals process, we're absolutely primed for a thalidomide-like tragedy (human as well as non-human).
Let's say there's an herb -- let's call it Ovacea -- that is found (or at least believed) to be effective in relieving menstrual cramps. Word gets around, alternative healers recommend it to lots of young women, they go to the "health food" store, take it, and feel better. But they don't really know how much of the effective compound they're getting; some are taking way too much (on the theory that if a little is good, a lot is even better), and others are taking more than they think they are (because of the wide natural variation in the amount of effective compound from one batch to the next).
Fast-forward five years, and the story finally hits the news. Ovacea, it seems, when taken in large doses, causes permanent infertility. Thousands of young women discover they'll never be able to have children. Not only are their lives devastated, but they have no hope of even the hollow comfort of monetary compensation, because everything that happened was perfectly legal. It's just their tough luck.
I'm sorry to say this, but I fear that there could be some scenario similar to this one that's playing itself out right now. I hope I'm wrong, but given the current state of the law on "food supplements", I really think it's inevitable.
Of course, there are occasional problems with prescription drugs (can you say phen-fen?) but the rigorous testing process makes it far less likely.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2001 : 00:27:15 [Permalink]
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Snake, I hope Woody is okay.
Thanks. We love him so much. The vet said it looks like a sprained back. Woody has to take it easy, no chasing the ball for a while. But he really scared me, was walking with his head down to the floor and his back hunched over. I didn't know they can hurt their backs like we do but the vet said it's not uncommon.
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Anja has a great vet. The woman never can remember who I am (even though I'm the one with the checkbook), but she knows the name of every animal she's seen.
Sounds like a nice human! Never trust anyone who doesn't like dogs.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2001 : 11:06:35 [Permalink]
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Let's say there's an herb -- let's call it Ovacea -- that is found (or at least believed) to be effective in relieving menstrual cramps. Word gets around, alternative healers recommend it to lots of young women, they go to the "health food" store, take it, and feel better. But they don't really know how much of the effective compound they're getting; some are taking way too much (on the theory that if a little is good, a lot is even better), and others are taking more than they think they are (because of the wide natural variation in the amount of effective compound from one batch to the next).
Fast-forward five years, and the story finally hits the news. Ovacea, it seems, when taken in large doses, causes permanent infertility. Thousands of young women discover they'll never be able to have children. Not only are their lives devastated, but they have no hope of even the hollow comfort of monetary compensation, because everything that happened was perfectly legal. It's just their tough luck.
I'm sorry to say this, but I fear that there could be some scenario similar to this one that's playing itself out right now. I hope I'm wrong, but given the current state of the law on "food supplements", I really think it's inevitable.
Here are a couple of examples of alternative medicines with potentially dangerous side effects both on there own and when mixed with other medications. I mentioned these drugs before but now I'll go into more detail since these supplements are so very common. When supplements like these are found in products like "Sobie" a soft drink, it's time to be more than worried.
Saint Johns Wart.
Recent findings indicate that SJW may jeopardize the effectiveness of a variety of other prescriptions, including oral contraception's, anti-seizure drugs, HIV treatment regimes, and organ transplant medications such as Cyclosoporine. Additionally, those with chronic health conditions, especially cardiovascular concerns, diabetes, or cancer, could be at risk when taking SJW.
Ginseng is now found in every liquor store in those little power boots packages, drinks and teas as well as supplements in the vitamin sections of your favorite pharmacy or health food store. I have never seen the following warnings on the label.
Ginseng is considered a "tonic" by herbalists. Tonic is a term that refers to a drugs ability to affect multiple body systems. For this reason, Ginseng is incompatible with a wide variety of prescription drugs and health conditions, including blood thinners such as Coumadin or Warfarin Sodium, anti-diabetic drugs like Glucotrol or Micronase, anti-psychotic drugs of the MAO1 class such as phenelzine, steroids, heart medications, and blood pressure lowering agents. Ginseng may also pose a risk to patients with any chronic health condition.
The problem, of course, is that people are now self medicating themselves with these things assuming that they are harmless because they are natural. The result of this kind of self medication can result in everything from an unwanted pregnancy to death.
I'm thinking of developing and marketing a diet supplement with hemlock, a natural ingredient, as a sure fire way to loose weight and cull the gene pool at the same time...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2001 : 12:05:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Let's say there's an herb -- let's call it Ovacea -- that is found (or at least believed) to be effective in relieving menstrual cramps. Word gets around, alternative healers recommend it to lots of young women, they go to the "health food" store, take it, and feel better. But they don't really know how much of the effective compound they're getting; some are taking way too much (on the theory that if a little is good, a lot is even better), and others are taking more than they think they are (because of the wide natural variation in the amount of effective compound from one batch to the next).
Fast-forward five years, and the story finally hits the news. Ovacea, it seems, when taken in large doses, causes permanent infertility. Thousands of young women discover they'll never be able to have children. Not only are their lives devastated, but they have no hope of even the hollow comfort of monetary compensation, because everything that happened was perfectly legal. It's just their tough luck.
I'm sorry to say this, but I fear that there could be some scenario similar to this one that's playing itself out right now. I hope I'm wrong, but given the current state of the law on "food supplements", I really think it's inevitable.
Here are a couple of examples of alternative medicines with potentially dangerous side effects both on there own and when mixed with other medications. I mentioned these drugs before but now I'll go into more detail since these supplements are so very common. When supplements like these are found in products like "Sobie" a soft drink, it's time to be more than worried.
Saint Johns Wart.
Recent findings indicate that SJW may jeopardize the effectiveness of a variety of other prescriptions, including oral contraception's, anti-seizure drugs, HIV treatment regimes, and organ transplant medications such as Cyclosoporine. Additionally, those with chronic health conditions, especially cardiovascular concerns, diabetes, or cancer, could be at risk when taking SJW.
Ginseng is now found in every liquor store in those little power boost packages, drinks and teas as well as supplements in the vitamin sections of your favorite pharmacy or health food store. I have never seen the following warnings on the label.
Ginseng is considered a "tonic" by herbalists. Tonic is a term that refers to a drugs ability to affect multiple body systems. For this reason, Ginseng is incompatible with a wide variety of prescription drugs and health conditions, including blood thinners such as Coumadin or Warfarin Sodium, anti-diabetic drugs like Glucotrol or Micronase, anti-psychotic drugs of the MAO1 class such as phenelzine, steroids, heart medications, and blood pressure lowering agents. Ginseng may also pose a risk to patients with any chronic health condition.
The problem, of course, is that people are now self medicating themselves with these things assuming that they are harmless because they are natural. The result of this kind of self medication can result in everything from an unwanted pregnancy to death.
I'm thinking of developing and marketing a diet supplement with hemlock, a natural ingredient, as a sure fire way to loose weight and cull the gene pool at the same time...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2001 : 23:25:46 [Permalink]
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The problem, of course, is that people are now self medicating themselves with these things assuming that they are harmless because they are natural. The result of this kind of self medication can result in everything from an unwanted pregnancy to death.
Those people are idiots.
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I'm thinking of developing and marketing a diet supplement with hemlock, a natural ingredient, as a sure fire way to loose weight and cull the gene pool at the same time...
The Evil Skeptic
You took the words right out of my mouth, they deserve the Darwin Award, let them have it.
BTW, look at all the anti-drug ads, are they stopping kids from ODing? All thoes warning don't help so what makes you thing people care about their safety. Should the government protect them when they don't care enough to do something for themselfs? You are right, get them out of the gene pool.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2001 : 05:46:56 [Permalink]
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And somehow the FDA would still get blamed for not catching the problem.
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Actually, thalidomide is a great example -- of how proper procedures in scientific medicine work to protect the public (that's you and me).
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2001 : 05:51:13 [Permalink]
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And somehow the FDA would still get blamed for not catching the problem.
As strange as it sounds, you actually do have a point there, Gorgo.
"Necessity may be the mother of invention, but laziness is usually the father." -Bailey's First Law |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2001 : 06:12:31 [Permalink]
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Just on the flip side, and as an interesting aside, if Aspirin had been subjected to the FDA approval process, it would have failed, and we would be unable to use it today. (It caused horrible birth defects in just about every species we test on...except humans.)
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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