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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:04:33
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"The American Civil Liberties Union suffered another defeat in its quest to bar the Ten Commandments from the public square today as the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled a display of the Decalogue in Kentucky is constitutional."
"The original, three-judge panel of the appeals court upheld the display, saying the ACLU's "repeated reference to 'the separation of church and state' … [had] grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state."
"Whether the ACLU likes it or not, history is crystal clear that each one of the Ten Commandments played an important role in the founding of our system of law and government. Federal courts are beginning to rightfully reject extreme notions of 'separation of church and state.' It's about time that courts begin interpreting the Constitution consistent with its original purpose."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49883
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:32:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
"The American Civil Liberties Union suffered another defeat in its quest to bar the Ten Commandments from the public square today as the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled a display of the Decalogue in Kentucky is constitutional."
"The original, three-judge panel of the appeals court upheld the display, saying the ACLU's "repeated reference to 'the separation of church and state' … [had] grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state."
"Whether the ACLU likes it or not, history is crystal clear that each one of the Ten Commandments played an important role in the founding of our system of law and government. Federal courts are beginning to rightfully reject extreme notions of 'separation of church and state.' It's about time that courts begin interpreting the Constitution consistent with its original purpose."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49883
And I can see a problem already. You've quoted WingNut Daily.
The interesting twist is this. As we all know, WND is famous for taking things out of context and warping what actually happened.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/035142p.pdf
As we can clearly see in the text of this ruling, the first two displays were clearly thrown out. The third was reframed as a foundation for the DOI and had other historical references within. As such, it no longer was classified as having a sectarian purpose. By technicality, the court ruled that this display de-emphasised the document in favor of historical reference enough to satisfy the Lemon test.
We're not talking about Roy's rock, here. We're talking about the inclusion of the 10C's with no fewer than 7 other historical documents in proper context. ACLU thought they had a valid complaint due to the litigation history. They did not.
I also note that the text denouncing the ACLU quoted is not from the ruling. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/25/2006 11:40:27 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 11:46:35 [Permalink]
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While googling on this, I read a blog where the author was mad that this was upheld, and the author was a fundamentalist christian. The "logic" is that since the Decalogue is being shown with other documents, the glory of god is diminished, and is therefore blasphemous.
I got a laugh. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/25/2006 11:47:22 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 12:18:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
"The American Civil Liberties Union suffered another defeat in its quest to bar the Ten Commandments from the public square today as the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled a display of the Decalogue in Kentucky is constitutional."
"The original, three-judge panel of the appeals court upheld the display, saying the ACLU's "repeated reference to 'the separation of church and state' … [had] grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state."
"Whether the ACLU likes it or not, history is crystal clear that each one of the Ten Commandments played an important role in the founding of our system of law and government. Federal courts are beginning to rightfully reject extreme notions of 'separation of church and state.' It's about time that courts begin interpreting the Constitution consistent with its original purpose."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49883
And I can see a problem already. You've quoted WingNut Daily.
The interesting twist is this. As we all know, WND is famous for taking things out of context and warping what actually happened.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/035142p.pdf
As we can clearly see in the text of this ruling, the first two displays were clearly thrown out. The third was reframed as a foundation for the DOI and had other historical references within. As such, it no longer was classified as having a sectarian purpose. By technicality, the court ruled that this display de-emphasised the document in favor of historical reference enough to satisfy the Lemon test.
We're not talking about Roy's rock, here. We're talking about the inclusion of the 10C's with no fewer than 7 other historical documents in proper context. ACLU thought they had a valid complaint due to the litigation history. They did not.
I also note that the text denouncing the ACLU quoted is not from the ruling.
quote:
And I can see a problem already. You've quoted WingNut Daily.
(bill) To be perfectly honest I was not familiar with the webpage but was rather linked there for the article.
quote:
The interesting twist is this. As we all know, WND is famous for taking things out of context and warping what actually happened.+
(bill) Really? I will have to remember that if I ever go back to that page.
quote:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/035142p.pdf
(bill) That was a very interesting read. Thanks for the link
quote:
As we can clearly see in the text of this ruling, the first two displays were clearly thrown out. The third was reframed as a foundation for the DOI and had other historical references within. As such, it no longer was classified as having a sectarian purpose. By technicality, the court ruled that this display de-emphasised the document in favor of historical reference enough to satisfy the Lemon test.
(bill) The way I read it the display contained the 10C's as well as the Mayflower Compact; the Decleration of Independence; the Magna Carta; the Star Spangled Banner; the National motto; the Bill of Rights and Lady Justice from the get go and went on display in 2001.
quote:
We're not talking about Roy's rock, here. We're talking about the inclusion of the 10C's with no fewer than 7 other historical documents in proper context.
(bill) I have no problem with that.
quote:
I also note that the text denouncing the ACLU quoted is not from the ruling.
(bill) Noted.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 12:47:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
"The American Civil Liberties Union suffered another defeat in its quest to bar the Ten Commandments from the public square today as the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled a display of the Decalogue in Kentucky is constitutional."
"The original, three-judge panel of the appeals court upheld the display, saying the ACLU's "repeated reference to 'the separation of church and state' … [had] grown tiresome. The First Amendment does not demand a wall of separation between church and state."
"Whether the ACLU likes it or not, history is crystal clear that each one of the Ten Commandments played an important role in the founding of our system of law and government. Federal courts are beginning to rightfully reject extreme notions of 'separation of church and state.' It's about time that courts begin interpreting the Constitution consistent with its original purpose."
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49883
And I can see a problem already. You've quoted WingNut Daily.
The interesting twist is this. As we all know, WND is famous for taking things out of context and warping what actually happened.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/035142p.pdf
As we can clearly see in the text of this ruling, the first two displays were clearly thrown out. The third was reframed as a foundation for the DOI and had other historical references within. As such, it no longer was classified as having a sectarian purpose. By technicality, the court ruled that this display de-emphasised the document in favor of historical reference enough to satisfy the Lemon test.
We're not talking about Roy's rock, here. We're talking about the inclusion of the 10C's with no fewer than 7 other historical documents in proper context. ACLU thought they had a valid complaint due to the litigation history. They did not.
I also note that the text denouncing the ACLU quoted is not from the ruling.
quote:
And I can see a problem already. You've quoted WingNut Daily.
(bill) To be perfectly honest I was not familiar with the webpage but was rather linked there for the article.
quote:
The interesting twist is this. As we all know, WND is famous for taking things out of context and warping what actually happened.+
(bill) Really? I will have to remember that if I ever go back to that page.
quote:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/035142p.pdf
(bill) That was a very interesting read. Thanks for the link
quote:
As we can clearly see in the text of this ruling, the first two displays were clearly thrown out. The third was reframed as a foundation for the DOI and had other historical references within. As such, it no longer was classified as having a sectarian purpose. By technicality, the court ruled that this display de-emphasised the document in favor of historical reference enough to satisfy the Lemon test.
(bill) The way I read it the display contained the 10C's as well as the Mayflower Compact; the Decleration of Independence; the Magna Carta; the Star Spangled Banner; the National motto; the Bill of Rights and Lady Justice from the get go and went on display in 2001.
And the previous two displays had the 10C's in a larger frame which the courts interpreted as forwarding religion. The original enactment was questioned on the "secular purpose" prong of the Lemon test. The third and final iteration was consistant in it's treatment equally of all the documents. It was this third iteration that was ruled on.
quote:
quote:
We're not talking about Roy's rock, here. We're talking about the inclusion of the 10C's with no fewer than 7 other historical documents in proper context.
(bill) I have no problem with that.
quote:
I also note that the text denouncing the ACLU quoted is not from the ruling.
(bill) Noted.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2006 : 13:28:41 [Permalink]
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pleco noted: quote:
While googling on this, I read a blog where the author was mad that this was upheld, and the author was a fundamentalist christian. The "logic" is that since the Decalogue is being shown with other documents, the glory of god is diminished, and is therefore blasphemous.
I got a laugh.
I love it! Let's then help that fellow by removing the Bible from all libraries and bookstores, so it need not blasphemously share space with other documents.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/25/2006 13:29:09 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 07:58:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
[br
quote:
And the previous two displays had the 10C's in a larger frame which the courts interpreted as forwarding religion. The original enactment was questioned on the "secular purpose" prong of the Lemon test. The third and final iteration was consistant in it's treatment equally of all the documents. It was this third iteration that was ruled on.
(bill) I support the policy that has them displayed in context with some of our other founding and historical documents of the nation. This will help preserve truth. If the 10C's were allowed to be displayed simple on their own merit then what would stop other groups from posting their doctrines on the court house? Next thing you know we would have Islamic, Mormons, Atheists etc... etc... posting their doctrines. As long as the requirements that they be displayed in a historical context, with other founding documents, remains in tact then the 10C's will assuredly be the only doctrines displayed as all others will fail to make the criteria.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 08:06:29 [Permalink]
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Wow, I've never read the Atheist Decalogue...anyone have one handy?
And why can't we put Islamic, Mormon, etc? They all have had an influence in this country. Why do you exclude? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 08:21:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Wow, I've never read the Atheist Decalogue...anyone have one handy?
And why can't we put Islamic, Mormon, etc? They all have had an influence in this country. Why do you exclude?
quote:
And why can't we put Islamic, Mormon, etc? They all have had an influence in this country. Why do you exclude?
Because they were not consistently used and referenced when founding the legal and justice system of the young nation, as were the 10C's. Thereby validating them (10C's) as a historical document in the founding of our great nation. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Because they were not consistently used and referenced when founding the legal and justice system of the young nation, as were the 10C's. Thereby validating them (10C's) as a historical document in the founding of our great nation.
The ten commandments:
quote:
Exodus 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
How much of this can you find in the the Constitution Bill? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:36:23 [Permalink]
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Actually, Exodus Chapter 34 is the only place in the Bible where the Ten Commandments are dictated, and we know that the Constitution talks a lot about boiling a kid in it's mother's milk:
10And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
11Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
12Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
19All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
20But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
22And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
24For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:52:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Because they were not consistently used and referenced when founding the legal and justice system of the young nation, as were the 10C's. Thereby validating them (10C's) as a historical document in the founding of our great nation.
Here's a through step by step look-see of the 10C's and U.S. law...
http://www.sodabob.com/DeepThoughts/DT_2004_11_10.asp
I'd say when you analyze the 10C's and compare it to U.S. law, if anything, the 10C's an example of what to protect the public from. Calling the Ten C's the basis of U.S. law is modern fundie urban legend crapola. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 18:00:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Wow, I've never read the Atheist Decalogue...anyone have one handy?
And why can't we put Islamic, Mormon, etc? They all have had an influence in this country. Why do you exclude?
quote:
And why can't we put Islamic, Mormon, etc? They all have had an influence in this country. Why do you exclude?
Because they were not consistently used and referenced when founding the legal and justice system of the young nation, as were the 10C's. Thereby validating them (10C's) as a historical document in the founding of our great nation.
I could be mistaken but both the Mormons and the Muslims believe in the same god spoken of in the first 5 books of your bible. So, in essence, they all do.
Still waiting for the Atheist Doctrine.
And, 999 days left in the Bush Tyranny. Can't wait until day 666... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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