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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2006 : 19:50:35
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Somewhat disappointing, but the reaction will tell more of the story to come: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1765417,00.html
quote:
Long Beach, the country's biggest port, 30 miles south of Los Angeles, was reported to be quiet. Districts across the country with large Latino populations were said to be quieter than usual, and some large employers said they were shutting down for the day. Tyson Foods, the world's largest meat producer, closed about a dozen of its more than 100 plants. But overall the effect on the economy appeared to be less than organisers had hoped. Other than communities with very high immigrant populations, most cities seemed to function normally.
And another article on this topic: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060501/immigration_feature_060501/20060501/
quote:
The illegal immigrant controversy in the United States, which has reached a boiling point with massive protests nation-wide, is dividing Americans on how the problem should be resolved.
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The study concludes a little more than the majority, 53 per cent, believe illegal immigrants should be deported, compared with 40 per cent who believe they should.
I know we've already addressed this issue a bit on the forums lately, but given today's protests, I thought it warrented another go. My feelings on this issue are getting more clear as I lean more and more toward the stance that the freedom to migrate really should be a human right. As a Humanist, I identify with other human beings before I identify as an American or any other division within humanity. Sure there is a process for doing these things, but the current process locks out the most poor and destitute.
What rings the alarms in my head the most are things like this: quote:
On the overall effect of immigration, roughly as many citizens believe immigrants strengthen American society and the economy as those who feel immigrants threaten traditional American values. (my emphasis)
First of all, there is no such thing as "traditional Ameircan values" seeing as there has never been a homogenous American culture, religion, or ethnic group, and the USA itself is just over 200 years old. WASPs descended from puritans can pretend all they want, but their delusions are not reality. Second of all, what exactly are these bad values that immigrants are supposedly bringing along with them? OK, I'm a bit worried about all the old world Catholicism, but not so much that I want to limit a person's right to move to a place where they can make a better life for themselves and their family.
That's all for now.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 00:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
> I identify with other human beings before I identify as an American
Funny, I've never thought of myself as an American as my parents were from elsewhere.
quote:
First of all, there is no such thing as "traditional Ameircan values" seeing as there has never been a homogenous American culture, religion, or ethnic group, and the USA itself is just over 200 years old. WASPs descended from puritans can pretend all they want, but their delusions are not reality. Second of all, what exactly are these bad values that immigrants are supposedly bringing along with them? OK, I'm a bit worried about all the old world Catholicism, but not so much that I want to limit a person's right to move to a place where they can make a better life for themselves and their family.
But, I don't think you've thought this through.
That's true there few things one can truly call genuinely American but so what. What's in a name? It's a place and some places have too many people, it's called Over Population. When the economy can't sustain so many people, bad things happen. I can't speak for any other city but in Los Angeles we are paying too much for service we are not getting. They have yet, after over 50 years to solve the transportation problems here. So that's just great, we really need more people coming here to make it worse. Our state, California used to be high on the list for outstanding education, now we are near the bottom. ESL classes don't help with that.
If those poor under privileged peon have enough money to pay a smuggler to get them here why don't they stay where they are and improve what they have?
Many people think the US should get out of countries and not interfere with the politics of others. War protesters want the US out of the Middle East. Well, countries that 'send' there people here need to fix their situations too so people can 'have a better life' (whatever that means). The US can't be the baby sitter for the world. There is only so much land area, call it the US or America, with a culture or not it's a place that can't accommodate everyone who just feels like moving in whenever, where ever, before arranging for amenities.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 05:21:48 [Permalink]
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OK, I'm calling bullshit. The main point really chapping the hides of legal immigrants and natal Americans who oppose illegal immigration is that those people who have immigrated illegally to this country have been given seven opportunities since 1986 to become citizens. They haven't and the answer Washington keeps coming up with is another damn amnesty. It's getting to the point that it is no longer worth the while for anyone to immigrate legally. All they need do is jump the border and keep out of INS's way for 5 years until some idiot in a suit suggests another amnesty.
Here's my take.
1) No more amnesties.
2) The illegals go home
3) The government reduces the red tape to emigrate legally. We already have it in agriculture visas which are unlimited. In this way, more workers are protected under OSHA and some companies will no longer be able to promise payment at the end of a season and call INS to avoid paying off. Wage laws will be enforced.
Societies change. But what is the use for immigration laws which are thwarted at every turn so that there is no pay off for playing by the rules. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 05:28:48 [Permalink]
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| I think that they are going about it the wrong way. Why would you protest you right to work with not working? I think that a lot of American citizens have a hard time with illegals making ultimatums when we are educating their children and giving them free health care in a lot of instances. Most Mexicans do not know that their own country has more severe laws against illegals in their country than the US. In my opinion, their position should be to make the immigration laws easier for them to become citizens legally. I am sure if we cut off all of their benefits here for a day they would consider it inhumane. I think they need to show some gratitude in their message as well. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 05:36:02 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
It's a place and some places have too many people, it's called Over Population. When the economy can't sustain so many people, bad things happen.
I see you totally missed my point about identifying with humanity before identifying with any nationality. Overpopulation is a global problem. The solution is not for rich and powerful nations to lock the doors and pretend it doesn't exist. As a species, we need to figure out how to deal with (and stop) our growing population. It is not just a problem we have as a nation, and to treat it as such is to take a nationalistic stance, regardless of whether you think of yourself as an American or not.
Val wrote: quote:
It's getting to the point that it is no longer worth the while for anyone to immigrate legally. All they need do is jump the border and keep out of INS's way for 5 years until some idiot in a suit suggests another amnesty.
Please provide links to specifics about the "seven opportunities since 1986." What are you are saying goes completely against both what I've read and my intuition. Please explain to me why people who supposedly could already be citizens were marching in the streets yesterday asking for citizenship? Many people die every year trying to "jump the border" - why are they doing that? All the legal immigrants I've met were middle or upper class in the country of their origin. Illegals tend to be extremely poor, and it is much more difficult to get into this country, if not straight out impossible, legally. My friend Beth tried for 2 years to get her friend from Argentina to be able to visit her for a month, but the US refused to allow her in. Had she not been poor, she would have had no problem. This is very much a class issue. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/02/2006 05:45:08 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 05:43:06 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: quote:
Why would you protest you right to work with not working?
Why they chose that line of action was stated in the media pretty clearly: it was to demonstrate the role they play in this country's economy through a single day of their absence. Maybe it wasn't the best way to go about it, but that's largely beause companies they work for have been on their side politically, and this action risked alienating them. The message and principle of the demonstration wasn't confusing.
quote:
I think that a lot of American citizens have a hard time with illegals making ultimatums when we are educating their children and giving them free health care in a lot of instances.
Exactly what is the "ultimatum" was was made yesterday? I would also like to point out that because most of them are paying at least some taxes (taken out of income at most jobs, and sales tax), and because they are not receiving all of the same benefits as Americans(ex: social security), they are paying for their kid's education and health care just as much as we are.
quote:
Most Mexicans do not know that their own country has more severe laws against illegals in their country than the US. In my opinion, their position should be to make the immigration laws easier for them to become citizens legally.
What are you talking about? The president of Mexico has been trying to get the USA to accept more Mexican immigrants for some time. I'm not sure what you are saying here.
quote:
I am sure if we cut off all of their benefits here for a day they would consider it inhumane.
They wouldn't be the only ones.
quote:
I think they need to show some gratitude in their message as well.
Many of them did. They are specifically criticizing the politicians who are pushing for the laws to make them felons and those who support those laws. Did you miss all the people waving American flags and holding signs expressing how much they love America and want to be citizens? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 05:52:59 [Permalink]
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My girlfriend, who is from Mexico City (and legal for all you hatemongers) told me that 1 May is Labor Day in Mexico (and most of the rest of the world.)
I tried to get her to protest by not going to her job, given that she is still on a H-1B work visa after 7 years due to lawyer incompetence and the beauracractic nightmare that is the INS. She is trying to work within the system to get her status changed to permanent residence, but this hasn't happened yet. She owns a house and land here, pays her taxes, and has never got in any trouble. So, she has to live with the knowledge that if she were let go at her current job, she would have to go back to Mexico. And in the Great State of Alabama, we are a Right to Work state, which means she could be fired for any or no reason and she would have no recourse (not including discrimination which is federally protected.)
She went in anyway, feeling that was her responsibility, but later felt maybe she shouldn't have.
I think that people who want to be draconian in the treatment of "illegals" are talking out of their ass without a clue.
And I really wonder, if the illegals were whiter, how much uproar there would be. I guess they should be happy they aren't totally dark, right?
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 06:06:12 [Permalink]
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| The problem isn't immigration, the problem is poverty. The problem is NAFTA, IMF, NED, WTO, and similar groups of letters. Stop the creation of abject poverty, and you will not create immigration problems. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 05/02/2006 06:34:01 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 07:02:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Snake wrote: quote:
It's a place and some places have too many people, it's called Over Population. When the economy can't sustain so many people, bad things happen.
I see you totally missed my point about identifying with humanity before identifying with any nationality. Overpopulation is a global problem. The solution is not for rich and powerful nations to lock the doors and pretend it doesn't exist. As a species, we need to figure out how to deal with (and stop) our growing population. It is not just a problem we have as a nation, and to treat it as such is to take a nationalistic stance, regardless of whether you think of yourself as an American or not.
Val wrote: quote:
It's getting to the point that it is no longer worth the while for anyone to immigrate legally. All they need do is jump the border and keep out of INS's way for 5 years until some idiot in a suit suggests another amnesty.
Please provide links to specifics about the "seven opportunities since 1986." What are you are saying goes completely against both what I've read and my intuition. Please explain to me why people who supposedly could already be citizens were marching in the streets yesterday asking for citizenship? Many people die every year trying to "jump the border" - why are they doing that? All the legal immigrants I've met were middle or upper class in the country of their origin. Illegals tend to be extremely poor, and it is much more difficult to get into this country, if not straight out impossible, legally. My friend Beth tried for 2 years to get her friend from Argentina to be able to visit her for a month, but the US refused to allow her in. Had she not been poor, she would have had no problem. This is very much a class issue.
No. 1- Immigration Reform and Control Act Amnesty of 1986:
No. 2 - Section 245(i) Amnesty of 1994
No. 3 - Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty of 1997
No. 4 - NACARA Amnesty of 1997
No. 5 - HRIFA Amnesty of 1998
No. 6 - Late Amnesty of 2000
No. 7- LIFE Act Amnesty of 2000
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/history/may1987.htm
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/hdi245i.htm
http://www.visalaw.com/98jun/8jun98.html
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/residency/LIFE.htm
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/residency/hrifa.htm
http://www.shusterman.com/schey1100.html
As to why are they doing it, it's because the INS is fucked up and has more regulations on people entering the country than current inner city public high school graduates. I'm against businesses taking advantage of a workforce who cannot report the the company to OSHA or the labor board. I also said that the INS needs to be reformed and reduce financial burdens on immigrants. Making it more advantageous to immigrate legally instead of trying to dodge the INS until Congress issues another amnesty. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 09:22:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
...but the current process locks out the most poor and destitute.
I'd still like to see some evidence for the above. And pleco's girlfriend doesn't sound poor or destitute, but appears to be effectively locked out of gaining citizenship anyway.
Furthermore, NPR this morning interviewed some undocumented LA highschool kids. The undocumented father of one of them owns his own muffler shop. He's undoubtedly not poor or destitute, but still remains an illegal immigrant.
(By the way, the 17-year-olds seemed to be naively self-assured that if the INS came knocking on their doors, they'd be given breaks because they're working hard and getting good grades in school.)
In another NPR commentary, an Indian doctor was complaining about being unable to get a green card because there are so many highly-skilled Indians here, and a quota system which puts a limit on the number of green cards issued to immigrants of any single country. He, also, has been locked out of citizenship for years.
I know you weren't talking about being poor hampering citizenship in this thread, but you were in a previous thread. And I'm having trouble seeing how being poor hampers legal immigration or citizenship. Does getting a green card, by itself, cost a lot of money? 'Cause going from permanent resident alien to citizen doesn't actually cost anything, so far as I can tell. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 09:39:19 [Permalink]
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The only reason my girlfriend was allowed into this country was on a student visa, then after college she was allowed to stay because she is considered a "highly skilled laborer" - she is a senior software engineer.
And due to the huge backlog, it is unknown when she will be issued a visa number, after she gets through the first few hurdles that is.
And Dave W., it does cost money if you hire a lawyer to handle your case. Usually, if you have H-1B status, your company will handle that, but, as you can see, there is an inherent conflict when the company could use this over the employee (do what we tell you or get deported).
It is a fucking mess. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 09:49:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
...but the current process locks out the most poor and destitute.
I'd still like to see some evidence for the above. And pleco's girlfriend doesn't sound poor or destitute, but appears to be effectively locked out of gaining citizenship anyway.
Furthermore, NPR this morning interviewed some undocumented LA highschool kids. The undocumented father of one of them owns his own muffler shop. He's undoubtedly not poor or destitute, but still remains an illegal immigrant.
(By the way, the 17-year-olds seemed to be naively self-assured that if the INS came knocking on their doors, they'd be given breaks because they're working hard and getting good grades in school.)
In another NPR commentary, an Indian doctor was complaining about being unable to get a green card because there are so many highly-skilled Indians here, and a quota system which puts a limit on the number of green cards issued to immigrants of any single country. He, also, has been locked out of citizenship for years.
I know you weren't talking about being poor hampering citizenship in this thread, but you were in a previous thread. And I'm having trouble seeing how being poor hampers legal immigration or citizenship. Does getting a green card, by itself, cost a lot of money? 'Cause going from permanent resident alien to citizen doesn't actually cost anything, so far as I can tell.
In Marf's defense, while researching the 7 amnesties, I made a side trip to fees and schedules. The fees for a green card are a couple hundred dollars the green card itself is about $200 and the other filing fees for forms start piling up. Just entering the country is $6. And the green card is for 10 years. People here on the less expensive H1B visa have to have a corporate/business sponsor and the company has to pay some significant filing fees.
So far, I've heard that agriculture visas are unlimited, but it depends on the companies requesting them for workers and paying for them. (plus increased wages, OSHA compliance, etc)
There is always a way to file for political asylum which doesn't cost that much but you have to prove that you or your family are in danger of being jailed, killed, or beaten for your beliefs/conditions.
Let the facists take over in Mexico, and I think the situation becomes radically worse. (last count, the conservatives regained the lead in the polls by 3 percent, the facists had been leading) Look for political asylum claims to skyrocket and a full militarization of the Mexican border. Might even see mine fields. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 12:11:12 [Permalink]
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Lots of kids at those rallies. Not a lot of mention that Mexico has done nothing to check it's soaring birthrate (among the highest in the world) for many years.
There's only so much room. The tragedy of the commons comes to mind. I doubt my son will be able to buy a house. The ones in my middle class neighborhood are literally topping 1.5 million. I kid you not.
Now as far as human rights go, they're our neighbors. I'd like to see Mexico and the rest of the counties to the south become equally prosperous. The USA has screwed those countries' development for decades by supporting right wing dictators and allowing our corporate partners to exploit the labor and natural resources. So I feel we owe them something.
If they would just slow down the birthrate I'd be more sympathetic. Typically that comes with prosperity. And typically there is a lag between reaching prosperity and subsequent slowing of population growth. But we could speed it up a bit if it was openly discussed. Of course Evangelicals aren't likely to bring it up.
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