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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 05/16/2006 : 08:33:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
But it is better evidence [for Jesus] than we have that Plato ever lived, or Homer, or many historical figures that we take for granted.
From Wikipedia
Give me a break:
Plato (Greek: #928;#955;#940;#964;#969;#957;, Plát#333;n, "wide, broad-shouldered") (c. 427 – c. 347 BC), whose real name is believed to be Aristocles, was an immensely influential ancient Greek philosopher, a student of Socrates, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens where Aristotle studied.
Gee that seems like pretty good evidence..
Who "takes for granted" that Homer was definitly a historical figure:
Tradition held that Homer was blind, and various Ionian cities are claimed to be his birthplace, but otherwise his biography is a blank slate. There is considerable scholarly debate about whether Homer was actually a real person, or the name given to one or more oral poets who sang traditional epic material.
Typical Bill bullshit....
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 08:48:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
First look at the testimony of the Jewish Talmud. The Talmud is a historical document that includes commentaries on the Jewish books of the law, civil and religious records. The Talmud is not supportive of Christianity and is very hostile to Jesus. The Talmud praises the trial, conviction and execution of Jesus. The Talmud also refers to Jesus as a bastard son of Mary. The account of Jesus in this historical document was indisputably written by those who were enemies of Jesus. In a court of law, if your enemy testifies on your behalf, willingly or unwillingly, it is a highly credible testimony. The Talmud testifies on behalf of many of the Bible's claims about Jesus; it verifies the existence of Jesus, states that Jesus was a teacher, verifies the trial of Jesus as instigated by the religious leaders, the conviction and crucifixion of Jesus. Even more importantly, the Talmud verifies that Jesus performed many healings and miracles. It claims that Jesus performed these miracles through the power of sorcery; however, the key evidence is that even though the enemies of Jesus are hostile witnesses, they do not dispute the miracles but verify them and validate the Biblical account. Jesus' very enemies validated His works and even though their intentions were malicious, they provide a strong testimony for the scriptures.
Baloney! And, dare I say, an anti Semitic twisting of what the Talmud actually does, or, more to the point, does not say about Jesus. If this is the level of the Christian Scholarship that Bill is presenting, all I can say is it goes well beyond cherry picking to outright fabrication based on wishful thinking…
See: Jesus in The Talmud.
And: The Jesus Narrative In the Talmud
Which concludes:
quote:
It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud. Most of the supposed "blasphemies" of Jesus and Mary in the Talmud do not refer to them at all. However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity. If you are looking for Christian fellowship then Jewish literature is not the place to look. However, there is no basis at all to state unequivocably that the Talmud calls Jesus a bastard or that Mary was a prostitute who had sex with many men. As has been shown, those passages definitely do not refer to Jesus.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 08:51:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
But it is better evidence [for Jesus] than we have that Plato ever lived, or Homer, or many historical figures that we take for granted.
From Wikipedia
Give me a break:
Plato (Greek: #928;#955;#940;#964;#969;#957;, Plát#333;n, "wide, broad-shouldered") (c. 427 – c. 347 BC), whose real name is believed to be Aristocles, was an immensely influential ancient Greek philosopher, a student of Socrates, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens where Aristotle studied.
Gee that seems like pretty good evidence..
Who "takes for granted" that Homer was definitly a historical figure:
Tradition held that Homer was blind, and various Ionian cities are claimed to be his birthplace, but otherwise his biography is a blank slate. There is considerable scholarly debate about whether Homer was actually a real person, or the name given to one or more oral poets who sang traditional epic material.
Typical Bill bullshit....
quote:
Gee that seems like pretty good evidence..
And yet you reject the historocity of Christ, who is far better documented then that of Plato, whom you accept as historical... (sigh)
quote:
Tradition held that Homer
What tradition are you, or, Wikipedia refering to here? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 10:05:43 [Permalink]
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Frankly, the ideas that Plato or Homer or even Lincoln didn't exist are of no consequence, since none of them are claimed to have performed miracles or be God.  I am asked to accept Jesus' divinity just because some historians are convinced of his bodily existence and can't get past their own false dichotomies and arguments from incredulity. This is the most astounding example of conflation of subjects that I've ever seen.
Hey, Bill: where are the four-legged grasshoppers? If Jesus taught that Genesis was accurate, then there were four-legged grasshoppers at some point in time. Are the middle-Eastern governments all hiding them from us?
Oh, and I find it less than compelling that since some ancient Jews believed in magic, then I should believe in magic also. Double- That the Jews were highly critical of Christians doesn't mean much when both groups were arguing over whose fairy tale is correct. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 10:35:36 [Permalink]
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Quite frankly, I don't care if Jesus was a actual person or not. I think it's entirely probable that there was indeed an itinerant rabbi of that name in that region at that time, who managed to piss those in authority off enough to get himself nastily executed, it matters not at all and is nothing but a big, fat, odoriferous red herring, blithely leading away from the second half of this little screed. Make a good topic for another thread, though....
So whither away, Bill? Where did Dr. Leipzig go awry in his calculations?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 11:17:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Frankly, the ideas that Plato or Homer or even Lincoln didn't exist are of no consequence, since none of them are claimed to have performed miracles or be God. I am asked to accept Jesus' divinity just because some historians are convinced of his bodily existence and can't get past their own false dichotomies and arguments from incredulity. This is the most astounding example of conflation of subjects that I've ever seen.
Hey, Bill: where are the four-legged grasshoppers? If Jesus taught that Genesis was accurate, then there were four-legged grasshoppers at some point in time. Are the middle-Eastern governments all hiding them from us?
Oh, and I find it less than compelling that since some ancient Jews believed in magic, then I should believe in magic also. Double- That the Jews were highly critical of Christians doesn't mean much when both groups were arguing over whose fairy tale is correct.
quote:
Frankly, the ideas that Plato or Homer or even Lincoln didn't exist are of no consequence, since none of them are claimed to have performed miracles or be God.
(bill) Obviously, Dave, you missed the point again. The point had nothing to do with Lincoln perfuming miracles, but rather how we determine what we know about Lincoln, or any other persons of history for that matter. As the point was made we don't "scientifically", using formulas and bunsen burners, to come to our conclusions for the bio of Lincoln, but rather we come to our conclusions through historical evidences. Of which, as I have demonstrated, the historical record for the death, burial, and resurrection of JC is provided in more then an abundance that would convince any skeptic who choose to look at the evidence in the same way they would look at evidence for any other historical figures such as Plato, could come to only one conclusion. Historically speaking, Jesus Christ rose from the dead, validating who he said he was.
quote:
I am asked to accept Jesus' divinity just because some historians are convinced of his bodily existence and can't get past their own false dichotomies and arguments from incredulity. This is the most astounding example of conflation of subjects that I've ever seen.
(bill) So based on nothing, but your handwave, you reject the historians of the time, as well as over 500 eyewitnesses in favor of your own opinion? Is this your normal "scientific" approach to uncovering history, Dave?
Not only did I give you Jewish sources, that were hostile to Jesus' claims of divinity, as confirming the death of Jesus Christ on the Roman cross, his burial, and that the fact that he appeared to many eyewitnesses after the burial, but I gave you Roman sources as well. None of which could refute the death, burial, and appearance of Christ, after the crucifixion, as nothing but a historical event.
quote:
Hey, Bill: where are the four-legged grasshoppers? If Jesus taught that Genesis was accurate, then there were four-legged grasshoppers at some point in time. Are the middle-Eastern governments all hiding them from us?
(bill) Don't know, Dave. After I am done turning over every stone in the middle east, and am sure I have recorded every grasshopper found, I will send you my conclusions. Besides, what is your point? I never said grasshoppers are why I accept Genesis, but rather it was the historically documented fact of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which, ultimately, is why I accept the writings.
quote:
Oh, and I find it less than compelling that since some ancient Jews believed in magic, then I should believe in magic also. Double- That the Jews were highly critical of Christians doesn't mean much when both groups were arguing over whose fairy tale is correct.
(bill) Irrelevant, as I gave you three independent sources that all corroborated each other. I gave you Jewish historians. I gave you Roman governors and historians and there are the 500 eyewitness, as well as the 11 disciples, all of which corroborated the death and burial and none ever refuted the resurrection, though many certainly would have like to had they been able to.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 11:35:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Quite frankly, I don't care if Jesus was a actual person or not. I think it's entirely probable that there was indeed an itinerant rabbi of that name in that region at that time, who managed to piss those in authority off enough to get himself nastily executed, it matters not at all and is nothing but a big, fat, odoriferous red herring, blithely leading away from the second half of this little screed. Make a good topic for another thread, though....
So whither away, Bill? Where did Dr. Leipzig go awry in his calculations?
quote:
Quite frankly, I don't care if Jesus was a actual person or not.
(bill) Certainly your allowed your opinion.
quote:
I think it's entirely probable that there was indeed an itinerant rabbi of that name in that region at that time, who managed to piss those in authority off enough to get himself nastily executed,
(bill) That is good considering it already has been historically demonstrated to be so. Of course how do you dismiss the appearance of Christ after the crucifixion and burial? The Jewish leaders of the day, nor the Roman government could not explain away the empty grave or the appearance of Christ to over 500 people.
quote:
it matters not at all and is nothing but a big, fat, odoriferous red herring, blithely leading away from the second half of this <http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6111&whichpage=1> little screed. Make a good topic for another thread, though....
(bill) I am sorry Filthy. I took the bait when leo begged me for why I am so sure of what I believe.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 12:05:57 [Permalink]
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Actually Bill, I care little about whether Jesus was a real person or not. History is filled with many, much more interesting people, some of them actually thinking of themselves as gods or the offspring thereof (it's a fairly common delusion, even today). Nor do I concern myself with your or anyone's beliefs in the various gods. I wouldn't take away your faith even if I could.
I have made a claim; the claim that the Deluge & Flood never happened and the Ark was never built, and wouldn't have survived the event if it had. I have presented evidence accordingly. I await rebuttal.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 12:19:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
He obviously doesn't think these things through. He accepts them at face value and ignores even the most obvious errors when they are pointed out. Perhaps deep down he knows that these pillars of his faith would crumble upon the slightest inspection, so he deliberately keeps his eyes shut.
(bill) So inspect them and bring forth your criticism so we can discuss.
OK. Just one for now to keep it focused: Mt. St. Helens and erosion.
How do you equate the the erosion of loose ash to the erosion of solid rock? Loose beach sand is easily eroded by a pailfull of water, but that it will have no effect on solid rock. The same goes for water and volcanic ash. Therefore, MSH is not an analogy for the erosion of the Grand Canyon. Your response?
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 12:27:31 [Permalink]
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So, Bill, I guess you're just going to skip over that hot steamy load of crap about Jesus being mentioned in the Talmud.
Whatever…
You really should rebut Filthy's original post…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 12:45:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Actually Bill, I care little about whether Jesus was a real person or not. History is filled with many, much more interesting people, some of them actually thinking of themselves as gods or the offspring thereof (it's a fairly common delusion, even today). Nor do I concern myself with your or anyone's beliefs in the various gods. I wouldn't take away your faith even if I could.
I have made a claim; the claim that the Deluge & Flood never happened and the Ark was never built, and wouldn't have survived the event if it had. I have presented evidence accordingly. I await rebuttal.
quote:
Actually Bill, I care little about whether Jesus was a real person or not.
(bill) As clearly demonstrated he was much more then simply a person.
quote:
History is filled with many, much more interesting people, some of them actually thinking of themselves as gods or the offspring thereof (it's a fairly common delusion, even today).
(bill) But how many could demonstrate that they, in fact, were the creator? How many died and then were buried and then rose after three days to appear to hundreds who had witnessed their death? Not only did the disciples die a horrific death, by refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ, but so were many many other Christians who were burned at the stake, feed to the lions, crucified etc... etc... all for refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ after they had witness him die. Please tell me how you explain away the resurrection when the Jewish leaders of the day, as well as the Roman authorities, were unable to explain away the resurrection? Not only could they not explain it away but they could not even contain the spread of the news of the resurrection with the threat of burning at the stake, being feed to lions etc... What, I ask you, could have convinced hundreds, if not thousands, to die for a man they saw die with their own eyes, if in fact, they did not see the resurrected Christ after they had seen him die?
quote:
I have made a claim; the claim that the Deluge & Flood never happened and the Ark was never built, and wouldn't have survived the event if it had. I have presented evidence accordingly. I await rebuttal.
(bill) As I said earlier, it would be a endless exercise in futility for us to go back and forth over the logistics etc... of Noah's ark. Not to mention all the assumptions that would be made on all the conditions that would have to be factored in. As I stated before, I ultimately accept the book of Gneiss based on the fact that Jesus Christ gave the book authority, and I believe Jesus to be the creator, cloaked in human flesh, based on the historically proven fact of his death, burial and resurrection.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 13:02:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
quote:
Actually Bill, I care little about whether Jesus was a real person or not.
(bill) As clearly demonstrated he was much more then simply a person.
quote:
History is filled with many, much more interesting people, some of them actually thinking of themselves as gods or the offspring thereof (it's a fairly common delusion, even today).
(bill) But how many could demonstrate that they, in fact, were the creator? How many died and then were buried and then rose after three days to appear to hundreds who had witnessed their death? Not only did the disciples die a horrific death, by refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ, but so were many many other Christians who were burned at the stake, feed to the lions, crucified etc... etc... all for refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ after they had witness him die. Please tell me how you explain away the resurrection when the Jewish leaders of the day, as well as the Roman authorities, were unable to explain away the resurrection? Not only could they not explain it away but they could not even contain the spread of the news of the resurrection with the threat of burning at the stake, being feed to lions etc... What, I ask you, could have convinced hundreds, if not thousands, to die for a man they saw die with their own eyes, if in fact, they did not see the resurrected Christ after they had seen him die?
quote:
I have made a claim; the claim that the Deluge & Flood never happened and the Ark was never built, and wouldn't have survived the event if it had. I have presented evidence accordingly. I await rebuttal.
(bill) As I said earlier, it would be a endless exercise in futility for us to go back and forth over the logistics etc... of Noah's ark. Not to mention all the assumptions that would be made on all the conditions that would have to be factored in. As I stated before, I ultimately accept the book of Gneiss based on the fact that Jesus Christ gave the book authority, and I believe Jesus to be the creator, cloaked in human flesh, based on the historically proven fact of his death, burial and resurrection.
That is not a rebuttal to my claim; it is no more than another attempt to drag us off into a totally different topic. You've been spending too much time hanging out at the kipper-monger's place. You wanna talk about Jesus, start another thread on him.
Again I ask: how is the Leipzig Calculation in error? Hell, comes to that, how is my introduction to it in error? That should be an easy one, as I stated right there in the OP that every word I wrote in it is a crock of  .
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 13:09:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
He obviously doesn't think these things through. He accepts them at face value and ignores even the most obvious errors when they are pointed out. Perhaps deep down he knows that these pillars of his faith would crumble upon the slightest inspection, so he deliberately keeps his eyes shut.
(bill) So inspect them and bring forth your criticism so we can discuss.
OK. Just one for now to keep it focused: Mt. St. Helens and erosion.
How do you equate the the erosion of loose ash to the erosion of solid rock? Loose beach sand is easily eroded by a pailfull of water, but that it will have no effect on solid rock. The same goes for water and volcanic ash. Therefore, MSH is not an analogy for the erosion of the Grand Canyon. Your response?
(bill) Well MSH was not the pillar of my faith that I was referring to, but rather I was talking about the historically demonstrated fact of the resurrection of Christ. That would be the pillar of my faith. However, as I said earlier, I don't care if the mountain was made of cardboard. MSH has been refereed to as a minor eruption. Yet it was also stated that the power released at MSH was that equal to 20,000 of the atomic bombs that we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I went on to state that if a minor eruption is equal to that of 20,000 Hiroshima's then just imagine what an infinite amount of MSHs could/would generate which would be a representation of what we might expect to see at the time of creation. Or if this minor eruption can change the entire landscape of MSH then just imagine the energy that would be unleashed on the landscape through a global flood. I don't think we can even imagine those forces. This limestone would be molded, carved and shaped like silly putty under the effect of such forces. Your mistake is trying to compare the global flood to a pail of water... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 13:18:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
quote:
Actually Bill, I care little about whether Jesus was a real person or not.
(bill) As clearly demonstrated he was much more then simply a person.
quote:
History is filled with many, much more interesting people, some of them actually thinking of themselves as gods or the offspring thereof (it's a fairly common delusion, even today).
(bill) But how many could demonstrate that they, in fact, were the creator? How many died and then were buried and then rose after three days to appear to hundreds who had witnessed their death? Not only did the disciples die a horrific death, by refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ, but so were many many other Christians who were burned at the stake, feed to the lions, crucified etc... etc... all for refusing to deny the resurrection of Christ after they had witness him die. Please tell me how you explain away the resurrection when the Jewish leaders of the day, as well as the Roman authorities, were unable to explain away the resurrection? Not only could they not explain it away but they could not even contain the spread of the news of the resurrection with the threat of burning at the stake, being feed to lions etc... What, I ask you, could have convinced hundreds, if not thousands, to die for a man they saw die with their own eyes, if in fact, they did not see the resurrected Christ after they had seen him die?
quote:
I have made a claim; the claim that the Deluge & Flood never happened and the Ark was never built, and wouldn't have survived the event if it had. I have presented evidence accordingly. I await rebuttal.
(bill) As I said earlier, it would be a endless exercise in futility for us to go back and forth over the logistics etc... of Noah's ark. Not to mention all the assumptions that would be made on all the conditions that would have to be factored in. As I stated before, I ultimately accept the book of Gneiss based on the fact that Jesus Christ gave the book authority, and I believe Jesus to be the creator, cloaked in human flesh, based on the historically proven fact of his death, burial and resurrection.
That is not a rebuttal to my claim; it is no more than another attempt to drag us off into a totally different topic. You've been spending too much time hanging out at the kipper-monger's place. You wanna talk about Jesus, start another thread on him.
Again I ask: how is the Leipzig Calculation in error? Hell, comes to that, how is my introduction to it in error? That should be an easy one, as I stated right there in the OP that every word I wrote in it is a crock of .
quote:
That is not a rebuttal to my claim
You kill me, bro. You want to debate Noah's ark with me but will reject anything that I submit that has to do with God or Jesus Christ. Dude, God is the foundation of the flood and Noah's ark account. It would be no different then for me to want to debate all the diversity we see in the biological world with you and I refuse you the ability to appeal to random mutations influenced by natural selection in this debate. It's like cutting off the legs of a gold medal sprinter before challenging him to race. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 13:20:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
So, Bill, I guess you're just going to skip over that hot steamy load of crap about Jesus being mentioned in the Talmud.
Whatever…
You really should rebut Filthy's original post…
Sorry, Kil. I have ran out of time for today. Yours will be first on my list when I return. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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