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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2006 : 15:59:58 [Permalink]
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Starman wrote: quote:
The fact that governments allow the people they send to their prisons to be abused and hurt by other inmates is pretty horrible.
Gorgo wrote: quote:
They not only allow it, at times they encourage it, and the public loves it and jokes about rape and such things that happens.
This has always deeply bothered me about the attitude toward crime in my culture - that once someone is convicted of a crime, they fall to a dehumanized status, and that in general, people who have never been convicted of a crime tend to be more interested in punishment than reform, regardless of what would best promote a peaceful and safe society. I agree with many of Gorgo's comments in bold.
Half wrote: quote:
Pedophiles are infamous for their high recidivism rate. I'd guess Judge Kristine Cecava has likely bet on the wrong horse. And, as Robb stated, she's gambling using other people's children for currency.
Well, yes, but isn't the bet using other peoples' children for currency (if we are going to use that crass metaphor) either way the judge sentences? After all, tw101356 commented: quote:
As I read it, the article seems to say that he would only serve 10 months if he were sent to prison:
"He faces 30 days of jail each year of his probation unless he follows its conditions closely."
If this is true, then 10 years of probation might be a lot better for the community than 10 months of jail followed by no supervision whatsoever.
Even if the judge ends up being wrong, are we jumping to a conclusion that she only had the convict's safety, and not the childrens' safety in mind? There is evidence that prison time under certain circumstances actually increases the crime rate by putting already damaged people in a situation where they will come out even more damaged.
It is difficult to think with a clear head on such issues because emotions run quite high when the safety of children is at risk. But we need to stay focussed on what is actually improving the whole of society (including all people, even people convicted of crimes) and not reduce individual persons to statistics and labels. Maybe an individual fits the standard mold of a uncurable pedophile, and maybe not. Either way he's going to be back on the streets whether on probation or after a few years in prison, so the judge had to consider what would have the best chances of reforming him. I don't think enough information has been provided on this forum to be able to say with certainty that this judge should be removed from her job or even that she obviously made a bad decision here.
I have heard it suggested before that convicted pedophiles should automatically get the death penalty because of the statistically high recidivism rate. The idea sort of makes sense as an idea, but I fear that in practice it would just be horribly abused. For example, most people are fine with the fact that convicted sex offenders have to out themselves to everyone in their community - this despite the fact that the category of "sex offenders" includes everything from people who have tortured little children to a 19-year-old convicted of statutory rape because he had consentual sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend. It puts rapists and flashers in the same category. And since people tend to focus on the extremes (the most sadistic offenders, the hard-core rapists and pedophiles), less-screwed-up offenders who could be more easily reformed can become equally demonized, and thus either suffer undeserved discrimination, physical abuse, or become a worse kind of offender. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/29/2006 16:01:16 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 16:07:42 [Permalink]
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There are always judges who are conned by the cons and molesters are very good at conning. Gee it was only the daughter of the fiancée. Well that won't ever happen again.  |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 16:27:22 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
There are always judges who are conned by the cons and molesters are very good at conning. Gee it was only the daughter of the fiancée. Well that won't ever happen again.
Very persuasive speculation based on limited knowledge of specific facts. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 18:04:21 [Permalink]
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| And experience, Marf. Nurses deal with the victims of child abuse and are expected to recognize it and take actions to intervene. I made the comments in general. News reports are never reliable for facts. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/29/2006 21:46:13 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 14:27:34 [Permalink]
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Hi guys, haven't sounded off for awhile but this is one of my buttons.
I think there should be a subcategory of criminal reserved strictly for people who pray on the defenseless. People who abuse children, the elderly, and people who are profoundly mentally or physically challenged. The lack of empathy for other human beings is what's scariest about them. You can't teach empathy and I believe that once someone has shown they have none, they need to be put down for the safety of society as a whole.
Taking a life is a horrible thing, but one humane death weighed against an unkown amount of suffering. I would choose the death every time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 14:30:51 [Permalink]
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| Arghhhh!!!! Dave was the last one logged on to SFN on my computer and I posted under his name. Sorry all of the above opinions are my own and haven't been seen or approved by Dave. |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 16:05:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LizW
Arghhhh!!!! Dave was the last one logged on to SFN on my computer and I posted under his name. Sorry all of the above opinions are my own and haven't been seen or approved by Dave.
Thanks for clearing that up, Liz. I was wondering how Dave became so intelligent all of a sudden. I was hoping to ask him for the name of the medication he'd discovered.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 16:26:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hi guys, haven't sounded off for awhile but this is one of my buttons.
I think there should be a subcategory of criminal reserved strictly for people who pray on the defenseless. People who abuse children, the elderly, and people who are profoundly mentally or physically challenged. The lack of empathy for other human beings is what's scariest about them. You can't teach empathy and I believe that once someone has shown they have none, they need to be put down for the safety of society as a whole.
Taking a life is a horrible thing, but one humane death weighed against an unkown amount of suffering. I would choose the death every time.
I don't know. From what I have read, many of the people committing such crimes have been the victim of these themselves in the past. Of course, killing them or locking them away indefinitely stops the chain right there, but is that justified?
I've been looking for statistics on rehabilitation for pedophiles. Anyone got any? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 16:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
When one is locked up, how much suffering can one cause?
One of the problems is that we can't keep abusers locked up indefinitely.
Also it seems one can do a lot of damage while locked up. That's why this judge made this weird decision to begin with.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 16:50:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
From what I have read, many of the people committing such crimes have been the victim of these themselves in the past.
I agree and it is sad that they have been damaged to the extent that they can no longer feel for others.
If the abuse is to be stopped, somehow the abusers have to be neutralized before they can damage a new generation.
There are other options but none of them are in use right now. Exile, or handicapping. I'm sure there are more but I'm not seeing them right now.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 09:55:15 [Permalink]
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| Took me a while there to figure out Liz was talking about the same computer. It isn't often cyberspace chatters actually bump heads in the spatial dimension. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 10:01:17 [Permalink]
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There's a balance between dealing with certain crimes as an illness and as a crime. We don't do a good job of it. The laws are written by elected people and rarely do they incorporate medical science into their decision making. It's one of the things that will improve in the long term when more people recognize the evidence based world over the 'still drawing conclusions without real evidence' world.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 10:11:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hi guys, haven't sounded off for awhile but this is one of my buttons.
I think there should be a subcategory of criminal reserved strictly for people who pray on the defenseless. People who abuse children, the elderly, and people who are profoundly mentally or physically challenged. The lack of empathy for other human beings is what's scariest about them. You can't teach empathy and I believe that once someone has shown they have none, they need to be put down for the safety of society as a whole.
Taking a life is a horrible thing, but one humane death weighed against an unkown amount of suffering. I would choose the death every time.
I don't know. From what I have read, many of the people committing such crimes have been the victim of these themselves in the past. Of course, killing them or locking them away indefinitely stops the chain right there, but is that justified?
I've been looking for statistics on rehabilitation for pedophiles. Anyone got any?
http://www.ipce.info/newsletters/e_18/myths_facts_recidivism.htm
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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