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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2006 : 00:11:17 [Permalink]
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As long as we're going to speculate on conspiracy theories like a power struggle leading to the leak that befell the latest terrorist evil leader, I can't stop thinking of a different conspiracy theory.
Zaq's body was just in too good of shape, I'm sorry. Not even a missing limb. Did we see any other bodies from the house that looked as intact? Did you see any of the building left? Is a human body stronger than a building?
So here's my conspiracy theory. The US has had ol' Zaq for awhile. Maybe not a year but perhaps a month. Rove is let off the hook via whatever kind of deal or perhaps just a slick lawyer twisting those lies into errors but either way, he's ready to start up the November campaign. So they kick it off with a bang. Blow up Zaq, then film one of those infamous, 'watch the bomb hit the target' flicks that were so popular in Gulf War I. Put Zaq on a stretcher and claim not only that you just hit the terrorists, but in the following days claim you got all sorts of new information in the raid that has just given you a whole bunch of successes against those terrorists. These are not mere insurgents, this is a major blow against the terrorists.
Next you send GW off in a manly maneuver to the Green Zone to prance around and look all Presidential. You even put out an utterly absurd talking point to be whispered by Fox news that the move was "Churchillian." As if. 
I hate to buy into a conspiracy as they are usually so nonsensical. And the only real evidence I have is the body was in such good shape as well as no pictures of other bodies. Oh and there was one Iraqi who was claiming, "they came in and set up the bombs" rather than the bombs fell from the sky. But we do have the Bush history of the Jessica rescue story and the Pat Tillman charging the enemy story which were at least a little bit elaborate propaganda schemes.
So who's buying it? Did I make a plausible case? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 06/18/2006 00:11:47 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 00:29:45 [Permalink]
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The body was washed and pictures were cleaned up to remove the gore.
The only pic I recall seeing of him dead was a mugshot.
Not to hard to brush up such things with photoshop (and other tools) out there these days.
I doubt that this admin is capable of pulling off any conspiracy of that magnitude.
Allthough... the Rove thing (him not being indicted) smells more of a metric assload of internal pressure and dealmaking so their party-boy will be in the clear to conduct the summer '06 smear campaign against the democrats than anything else. They need Rove, so they pulled strings to make him available and in the clear.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 02:43:17 [Permalink]
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I don't buy it, B., but it's possible. The "Zaq's body was just in too good of shape, I'm sorry" argument sounds too much like the unevidenced garbage from the 9/11 conspiracy buffs we've had here, claiming a building cannot fall in such a manner from a plane crash.
If you have evidence that bombs upon a house cannot result in varying degrees of damage to its occupants accounding to where they were, I'd be happy to see it. Until then, I'll assume that a few feet this way or that could make a huge difference. William of Occam says they simply finally got the guy, after many failed attempts. (In fact, Bill isn't any too fond of my speculation, either.) Nobody's luck lasts forever.
The only thing "Churchillian" about Bush is whatever hand he had in the the planning and execution of the Iraq war -- too much like the disaster of the WWI Gallipoli campaign that Churchill planned.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 12:38:37 [Permalink]
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The only thing necessary for this conspiracy was to have caught Al Zarq. earlier. The rest wouldn't have been any more complicated than sending a camera along with the orchestrated Jessica Lynch rescue team. However, being caught alive might have been more dramatic so that argues against the plan.
As to deal making with Rove and Fitzgerald, I would speculate it was more of a Johnny Cochrane feat than a deal. If the grand jury had suggested indictment, I doubt the info wouldn't be leaked eventually. If I recall the charges were lying to the Grand Jury, not leaking confidential CIA material. But who knows? |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2006 : 09:20:27 [Permalink]
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| What is this, some kind of right of passage for the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq. Maybe I wasn't callous enough in my previous post. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2006 : 13:34:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
What is this, some kind of right of passage for the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq. Maybe I wasn't callous enough in my previous post.
I think this confirms my guess that al Qaeda in Mesopotomia is now firmly under the rule of Ayman al Zawiri and Osama bin Laden. I'm not happy to be right. This barbaric kidnapping, torture and mutilation of American soldiers appears to be the first fulfillment of one of the "two good things" Dr. Mabuse expressed hope for. I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous. Mab hasn't elaborated. I certainly hope he wasn't. But we're talking about al Qaeda here, after all. This is the only way they wage war.
Mab's other hope, the lessening of sectarian fighting, I would agree would be a "good thing." But this fighting may turn out to now have a life and dynamic of its own. Most of the Sunni vs. Shi'ia fighting seems to be independent of the al Qaeda in Mesopotamia foreign jihadis. Under Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia was key in triggering that conflict, but Zarqawi's replacement may find it impossible to "un-trigger."
Now, to watch the sectarian fighting. I have not seen any slowdown there yet.
"Good intentions" and God's backing on all four sides: American, al Qaeda, Sunni, and Shi'ia. And look at what that gets us.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/20/2006 13:36:19 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 00:24:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This barbaric kidnapping, torture and mutilation of American soldiers appears to be the first fulfillment of one of the "two good things" Dr. Mabuse expressed hope for. I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous. Mab hasn't elaborated. I certainly hope he wasn't.
Bullshit HalfMooner!
You can do better than this.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 02:49:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This barbaric kidnapping, torture and mutilation of American soldiers appears to be the first fulfillment of one of the "two good things" Dr. Mabuse expressed hope for. I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous. Mab hasn't elaborated. I certainly hope he wasn't.
Bullshit HalfMooner!
You can do better than this.
Bullshit, how, Starman? I'm doing the best I can to parse what little I have to work with. I hope I misunderstood, and I accept such a possibility. If I did, I will apologize, to both Mab and to everyone here. I'm open-minded to correction using examples of my misreading or misunderstanding, particularly from Mab himself. But since you called bullshit, how do you understand Mab's statement (with my emphasis):quote:
If HalfMooner's conjecture is correct, at least one or two good things will come out of it:
First, this will ease tension and lower the risk of outright civil war.
Two, less attacks on innocents and more against the true aggressors.
(this may sound callous, but lets face it: Coalition forces shouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place)"
Please note again: I agree with Mab that the war is an act of aggression. I want the US out of Iraq. I also hope that sectarian violence between Sunni and Shi'ia abates. I only object to what I cannot help but read as Mab's comment that al Qaeda attacks on Americans and Brits would be a "good thing." I passionately want my compatriots to come home, and intact. (Believe me, I am deliberately understating my feelings on this issue by several orders of magnitude. Otherwise, I might begin gibbering obscenities that would prove nothing.)
Please explain: What's "bullshit" about my reading? What am I missing? Show me my mistake!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 03:48:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Please explain: What's "bullshit" about my reading? What am I missing? Show me my mistake!
My bullshit comment was for the strawman representation of Dr. Mabuse post.
Dr. Mabuse did not express a hope for barbaric practices, torture, kidnapping and murder.
quote:
less attacks on innocents and more against the true aggressors.
You can read this as a wish for more attacks on US/UK soldiers which would be a wish that I don't share.
I read this as if Dr. Mabuse prefers attacks on military (legit) targets to attacks on civilians. I do prefer that.
Remember, once a soldier is disabled or captured he cease to be a legitimate target.Unless the two was killed in the initial attack this was murder.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 04:54:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Please explain: What's "bullshit" about my reading? What am I missing? Show me my mistake!
My bullshit comment was for the strawman representation of Dr. Mabuse post.
Dr. Mabuse did not express a hope for barbaric practices, torture, kidnapping and murder.
...
Right, I agree, he certainly did not express sentiment in favor of such barbarity, and I never claimed he did. Which is exactly why I wrote to the contrary: "I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous. Mab hasn't elaborated. I certainly hope he wasn't." I wasn't being either sarcastic or snide. I simply meant what I wrote. Where's the strawman? However, I pointed out that barbarity's the only way al Qaeda wages war. Nobody within al Qaeda is facing internal courts-martial for abuse of prisoners, because the worst imaginable abuse is their policy, not, in their minds, an obscene aberration. Almost everyone by now understands how al Qaeda operates. The torture-killings of the US GI's is exactly the sort of action I was concerned about when I first read Mab's comment prior to that attack.
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
... quote:
less attacks on innocents and more against the true aggressors.
You can read this as a wish for more attacks on US/UK soldiers which would be a wish that I don't share.
I read this as if Dr. Mabuse prefers attacks on military (legit) targets to attacks on civilians. I do prefer that.
Remember, once a soldier is disabled or captured he cease to be a legitimate target.Unless the two was killed in the initial attack this was murder.
No argument with you in most of this in terms of "legitimate" warfare, but I'd argue that in al Qaeda's case, any attack they make in Iraq (or anywhere else) is murder, since they are simply an international terrorist gang with no legal standing as combattants in any conflict. Al Qaeda is not a state. Al Qaeda, due to its own nature, had no "legitimacy" in flying a plane into the Pentagon, even if they used the justification that the Pentagon was a "legitimate" military target. (I am not saying that Mab would support that, so no more "strawmen," please!)
I would, of course, appreciate it very much if Dr. Mabuse himself would care to commment. Neither of us can really speak with certainty to what he meant.
This part's pure opinion, separate from the present discussion: Those al Qaeda assholes have no "legitimate" targets anywhere. They themselves, unlike Iraq, are everyone's legitimate target. Al Qaeda is just as much a "true aggressor" in Iraq as the Americans and Brits, and, I would argue, far more vicious ones.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 07:01:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Right, I agree, he certainly did not express sentiment in favor of such barbarity, and I never claimed he did. Which is exactly why I wrote to the contrary: "I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous. Mab hasn't elaborated. I certainly hope he wasn't." I wasn't being either sarcastic or snide. I simply meant what I wrote. Where's the strawman?
Maybe strawman is the wrong fallacy. Slippery slope?
Its a poor way to argue anyway.
You don't think he actually meant what he did not write but you can't be sure of it? quote:
However, I pointed out that barbarity's the only way al Qaeda wages war. Nobody within al Qaeda is facing internal courts-martial for abuse of prisoners, because the worst imaginable abuse is their policy, not, in their minds, an obscene aberration. Almost everyone by now understands how al Qaeda operates. The torture-killings of the US GI's is exactly the sort of action I was concerned about when I first read Mab's comment prior to that attack.
...
No argument with you in most of this in terms of "legitimate" warfare, but I'd argue that in al Qaeda's case, any attack they make in Iraq (or anywhere else) is murder, since they are simply an international terrorist gang with no legal standing as combattants in any conflict.
True, Al Q members would have a hard time to get legal combatant status, but that does not change the nature of the targets and the reasons for the legal distinction.
Remember, not all fighting the coalition presence are Al Qaeda( and also, not all US combatants in Iraq are legal combatants.)
quote:
This part's pure opinion, separate from the present discussion: Those al Qaeda assholes have no "legitimate" targets anywhere. They themselves, unlike Iraq, are everyone's legitimate target. Al Qaeda is just as much a "true aggressor" in Iraq as the Americans and Brits, and, I would argue, far more vicious ones.
I agree completely. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 10:35:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This barbaric kidnapping, torture and mutilation of American soldiers appears to be the first fulfillment of one of the "two good things" Dr. Mabuse expressed hope for. I doubt that Mab was hoping for something this horrendous.
I wasn't hoping for this.
Regular fighting is regulated by the Geneva convention. Torture, mutilation, and outright murder is illegal anyway you cut it. You may take prisoners, but you have to treat them fairly. Killing soldiers wearing uniform and arms are ok by the rules of war.
quote:
Mab's other hope, the lessening of sectarian fighting, I would agree would be a "good thing." But this fighting may turn out to now have a life and dynamic of its own. Most of the Sunni vs. Shi'ia fighting seems to be independent of the al Qaeda in Mesopotamia foreign jihadis. Under Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia was key in triggering that conflict, but Zarqawi's replacement may find it impossible to "un-trigger."
Now, to watch the sectarian fighting. I have not seen any slowdown there yet.
"Good intentions" and God's backing on all four sides: American, al Qaeda, Sunni, and Shi'ia. And look at what that gets us.
It gets you a lesson in "why meddling in affairs of others is a bad idea". Especially when you don't understand the culture.
Poke around too much in hornet's nest, and eventually you'll get stung. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 10:50:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This part's pure opinion, separate from the present discussion: Those al Qaeda assholes have no "legitimate" targets anywhere. They themselves, unlike Iraq, are everyone's legitimate target. Al Qaeda is just as much a "true aggressor" in Iraq as the Americans and Brits, and, I would argue, far more vicious ones.
Al Qaeda presense was minimal in Iraq before the Coalition Forcec invaded. USA drew first blood, and made Iraq the lightning-rod. Without the invasion Al Qaeda wouldn't be "true aggressors" in Iraq. They would still work underground with the Talibans in Afghanistan.
Speaking of which...
Talibans are on the rebound, as people of Afghanistan didn't get the better life that was promised them once the Talibans were gone. Warlords put the money in their own pockets, and are making good profits on opium again.
5 years after operation "Liberate Afghanistan", it's starting to look like a fiasko. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 11:37:43 [Permalink]
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I don't think any of us would ever be pleased at injuries to our soldiers or Iraqis and I'm a bit confused about the above exchange between you guys.
Rush Limbaugh made up this outrageous lie on his program yesterday.quote:
RUSH: You know, I gotta tell you, I perused the liberal kook blogs today, and they are happy that these two soldiers got tortured. They're saying, "Good riddance. Hope Rumsfeld and whoever sleep well tonight." I kid you not, folks.
There were no such comments in the blogs according to people talking today about Rush's inflammatory lies.
As to the worsening conditions, the news I've been following reports the Shiites are essentially carrying out ethnic cleansing and in Baghdad the supposed police force is more like a death squad killing Sunnis. Women's rights have sunk to all time lows. You probably know the rest.
Last night CNN claimed there was news the 2 American soldiers were actually taken initially by the official Iraqi military, in other words the supposed good guys.
I don't think staying or leaving is going to matter much, the mess is so out of control. Unless there is an Iraqi national movement for normalcy, I'd say we just set the place up for the worst of the worst to have at it and everyone else is going to be powerless to stop it, us included.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 14:36:35 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse wrote: quote:
I wasn't hoping for this.
Regular fighting is regulated by the Geneva convention. Torture, mutilation, and outright murder is illegal anyway you cut it. You may take prisoners, but you have to treat them fairly.
Good! But, damn, you could have reflected a moment and seen this coming before you wrote about that "good thing." Nothing al Qaeda will ever do will be good. "Good" is not in their charter.
Dr. Mabuse continued in another post: quote:
Al Qaeda presense was minimal in Iraq before the Coalition Forcec invaded. USA drew first blood, and made Iraq the lightning-rod. Without the invasion Al Qaeda wouldn't be "true aggressors" in Iraq. They would still work underground with the Talibans in Afghanistan.
Agreed. Without Bush's boneheaded and dishonest invasion, this opportunity for al Qaeda wouldn't have existed. And all this justifies nothing that al Qaeda has done in Iraq or elsewhere, nothing.
And: quote:
Speaking of which...
Talibans are on the rebound, as people of Afghanistan didn't get the better life that was promised them once the Talibans were gone. Warlords put the money in their own pockets, and are making good profits on opium again.
5 years after operation "Liberate Afghanistan", it's starting to look like a fiasko.
My opinion is that the main problem in Afghanistan is that the US military has been distracted by Iraq. In stark contrast to Iraq, military itself action there was and is fully justified under international law, because the Taliban regime had harbored al Qaeda both before and after bin Laden murdered thousands of American on 9/11/2001. Whether these ideologically-driven idiots Bush and Rumsfeld themselves have the capability or even the will to complete the defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda remains doubtful.
I thank you for you reply, Dr. Mabuse, and for your clarification. If anyone thought I was accusing you of supporting al Qaeda's tactics of torture and murder of prisoners, I believe they misread what I wrote, and I apologize to you, Dr, Mabuse, and to everyone else for any of my words that may have been so unclear as to be misunderstood.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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