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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2006 : 03:03:26 [Permalink]
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I can see why a museum would want to attract as many people as they could. I even understand why they would use sensationalist topics to get people in.
But this idea that pervades our culture recently, that all issues and topics have two equally valid "sides", just pisses me off.
How do you do a neutral exibit on bigfoot? Considering that you have to invent every piece of the exibit wholecloth...
Part of me is with filthy on this, a museum has to be interesting and provocative, but to me that would mean any exibit on bigfoot would exist for the express purpose of ripping the myth a new orifice.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 05:06:10 [Permalink]
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| Does the museum include any mention of the Ray Wallace hoax claim? And was Bob Heironimus really the man in the suit? I couldn't find it, but I thought that one of Roger Patterson's children made the suit available. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 05:37:00 [Permalink]
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Ok, here's y'all's problem: you are looking at this exhibit as representing science. If it is properly done, it will not even hint at any sort of scientific study. Think guys, think!
Museums spend huge chunks of their budgets purely on display, ie: entertainment. I first saw the incredible Dunkleosteus fossil in the Cleveland Museum in the mid '60s. It was in a large, glass case with quite muted lighting. People who would look at it would make the same sound that they would at seeing a trapeze artist do a particularly dangerous maneuver: "Ooooo...."
And that was one of the simpler ones.
Lets face it; if no one but four-eyed nerds sweating examinations visited museums, they could just lay the shit out on a table and not have to worry about display. Could save a lot of money that way and the chewing gum stuck to the floor would be kept to a minimum.
quote:
I gotta humbly but strongly disagree with my guru, Filthy on this one. Though a museum does need to be interesting and entertaining, it should not be a sideshow of flimflammery exhibits. The American Museum of Natural History, in New York once was such a sideshow, in the days when it was operated by that magnificent showman, PT Barnum himself. Barnum collected such a strange menagerie of exhibits that success itself was a problem at his American Museum. If people stayed too long to gawk, there was no way for new suckers paying customers to enter. Barnum solved that problem by posting a sign by a door inside. Seeing the sign, many were intrigued, and went through the door -- only to find themselves standing on a New York street. The sign said, "This way to the Egress."
But P.T. Barnham, who actually ran a couple of museums of at one time or another, was an entrepreneur and connected only loosely to any sort of science at all. There is a vast difference between a museum and a freak show, but Barnham was the child on of an age when that difference wasn't so vast. Which is one reason that the Piltdown fraud enjoyed such success -- it wouldn't even get in the door today.
So, did the London Museum throw the miserable thing out when it was finally named for the nonsense it was/is? Certainly not! It is my understanding that it is currently on display at that same, excellent museum.
quote:
I can see why a museum would want to attract as many people as they could. I even understand why they would use sensationalist topics to get people in.
But this idea that pervades our culture recently, that all issues and topics have two equally valid "sides", just pisses me off.
How do you do a neutral exibit on bigfoot? Considering that you have to invent every piece of the exibit wholecloth...
Part of me is with filthy on this, a museum has to be interesting and provocative, but to me that would mean any exibit on bigfoot would exist for the express purpose of ripping the myth a new orifice.
All issues and topics do not have two, valid sides and some, like the Bigfoot myth scarcely have much of a single one. And I don't know how one might set up a neutral display on anything, but I'd like to try it. However, if it can be done properly, would it not be far better if the viewer ripped that new orifice for himself with no guidance, pro nor con, from the establishment? After all, percentage wise, not all that many people buy into in Bigfoot to start with. I personally don't know any, but then, I mostly hang out with thinking people. I have little doubt that the curator in charge of the exibit will be delighted to answer any and all questions put to him/her.
We and our culture(s) are at least in part defined by our myths and our legends. Thus, those are perfectly legitimate topics for public display, both in a freak show and a museum. It all depends upon the presentation. Would you object so strenuously to an historical, religious display? One that simply laid out the story without comment? Would that not be a part of our culture as well? I don't remember where, but I once saw one concerning Hindi. I thought it was excellent and I learned a little (that I've pretty much forgotten, alas).
And so, I suppose it's all a matter of degree. Bigfoot is really a common and rather old myth jazzed up a bit by modern fraud and gullibility. It's rather like the giant stories that pervade many if not most, or perhaps even all cultures. They are there in all of their fur and feathers, so let's have the public get a look at them with no hysteria either way.
If this exhibit is done well, it's substance will be obvious with no comment needed. I, for one, would like to see it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 07:33:46 [Permalink]
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Just because you have excellent Bullshit glasses, doesnt mean the public does. By just having the exibit they endorse the pro-bigfoot side. What tiny percentage actually reads all the placards and watches the all the video clips, to determine the official results of every test? Not to mention the 'John of God effect'*
*When J. Randi showed Larry Kings audience exactly how JoG faked the psychic surgery, over 100 people called into the show, all of which wanted to know how to get in touch with the miraculous JoG. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 07:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Mead said he expects the Bigfoot exhibit to rival an exhibit the museum had 15 years ago that featured automated dinosaurs.
"Bigfoot is along the same lines of attraction," said Mead. "He's mysterious and big."
Neutral in this case means, a whole bunch of Bigfoot 'evidence', none of which is critically examined. Another sad day for science and skepticism. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 09:18:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just because you have excellent Bullshit glasses, doesnt mean the public does. By just having the exibit they endorse the pro-bigfoot side. What tiny percentage actually reads all the placards and watches the all the video clips, to determine the official results of every test? Not to mention the 'John of God effect'*
*When J. Randi showed Larry Kings audience exactly how JoG faked the psychic surgery, over 100 people called into the show, all of which wanted to know how to get in touch with the miraculous JoG.
But of course! There are a great many idiots out there who will believe anything if it is far enough out and appeals to whatever desperate condition that they might, or might believe that they have. There is no reaching these, as the esteemed Randi has long ago learned. And there are some others that 'believe' simply because it suits their fancy. The bigger fools they, there is little to be done about them as well. But I ask: something over 100 calls out of how many viewers?
I don't have much faith in the general public -- what skeptic does? -- but I think that more read the placards and ask the questions than y'all suggest. By it's very nature, a museum, one other than what the likes of Carl Baugh, et al run  , are attractions for inquiring minds. To repeat myself: if it is done with care, it will chip another, small corner from the myth.
A personal example: It is not at all unusual, at the M/C clubhouse, if I am asked about wildlife of one sort or another. And some of these guys are about as thick and swift as a quay-wall bollard, and grew up their misconceptions. Why do they listen to me? Because, rightly or wrongly, I am considered an authority in the field (I'm not, really, but I am pretty good), and I will explain my answers in detail. Even the thick and unswift can be persuaded to think if you hit them with it just right.
So it is with a museum. If the display is simply there with no support nor detraction shown, the remainder, and these are in the majority although many of them simply won't care, of the public not already amongst the walking comatose will ask the questions. And those are the ones to try and reach. The rest, we can only hope that they don't wander out into the train traffic.
quote:
Neutral in this case means, a whole bunch of Bigfoot 'evidence', none of which is critically examined. Another sad day for science and skepticism.
I disagree.
I am sure that every piece of this 'evidence' has been thoroughly examined. I would not be surprised to learn that the DNA tests have indeed been done on the hair, although it would be disappointing if that were not presented. It is my understanding that these tests are pretty expensive, and that might be the reason for the 'neutral' display. State museum budgets tend to be pretty tight.
We have not seen this exhibit yet, so it is really a little early to pass judgment on it. We need some more detail.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 10:10:55 [Permalink]
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Oh, DNA tests were done I remember them from like 6 months ago. Im trying to say that every indication is that this is a total money grabbing ploy, the news release was so specificly worded that my spidey sense is cringing. It gave the impression that it would just be a bunch of 'artifacts' on display. I'm sure we can get someone from the area in there to verify it.
A placard reading "Yak hair, which was thought to be from Bigfoot" isnt very impressive, as someone already stated. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 10:16:36 [Permalink]
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| Also I think that many many people are in the 'if its in the museum it must be true' crowd, these people need a very clear explanation of why something is untrue, which I feel wont be available at this display. Just the fact that they compared this exhibit to the dinosaur exhibit in the news release should make any scientist mortified. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 10:26:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Oh, DNA tests were done I remember them from like 6 months ago. Im trying to say that every indication is that this is a total money grabbing ploy, the news release was so specificly worded that my spidey sense is cringing. It gave the impression that it would just be a bunch of 'artifacts' on display. I'm sure we can get someone from the area in there to verify it.
A placard reading "Yak hair, which was thought to be from Bigfoot" isnt very impressive, as someone already stated.
I didn't know that the tests were done, and it's true that small placards mean little unless they are elaborated upon. Food for thought, there...
I'm not so sure about the fund-raising, either. What is the price of admission? I don't keep track, as I get into state and national muesums and parks on a VA cripple card. How many folks will this attract, anyway? Will they all be Bigfoot freaks? Dunno.
It might be interesting to keep track of this one and see where the detail leads us.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 10:46:38 [Permalink]
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I bet its a better draw than the Dinosaur exhibit, which was probably their most sucessful.
10 Yen, who wants in? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 15:47:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I bet its a better draw than the Dinosaur exhibit, which was probably their most sucessful.
10 Yen, who wants in?
No bet. In the short term, you're probably right, but then looking at this sort of crap -- quote:
Included in the exhibit is the Patterson-Gimlin film that shows a large creature striding away before turning and looking directly at the camera.
In the clip the creature steps on a branch. That branch is included in the exhibit. The branch was used to calculate the creature's height at 6-foot-6, said Dave Mead, exhibits director at the museum.
Also on display is a flannel jacket worn by the late Rene Dahinden, who spend 40 years in search of Bigfoot. He wore the jacket during a series of commercials for Kokanee beer.
-- will get old fast for even the devout.
And something we've forgotten: this story is not a flier from the museum but a news article written by a journalist who likely knows doodly squat about it beyond the yarns doing the the rounds. Those types of story are for popular consumption and are spun in the direction that will grab the most readers.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 03:29:27 [Permalink]
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To flog this pathetic dead horse a little more:
The thought occures; 'neutral' is probably the only way a museum in Idaho, a state with regular if unsupported reports of Bigfoot, could put on a such a display. To do it from one aspect or the other would either have them enhancing nonsense or alienating supporters and concievably state funding. Rather like politics as usual and no big deal, isn't it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 09:02:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
All issues and topics do not have two, valid sides and some, like the Bigfoot myth scarcely have much of a single one.
quote:
Idaho Museum to Open Bigfoot Exhibit
By The Associated Press:
Jeff Meldrum, an anatomy professor at Idaho State University and a local Bigfoot expert, said the exhibit will give visitors a new way to consider the subject.
"I think the (museum's) approach is a very thought-provoking one that recognizes there are a variety of dimensions to the experience of Bigfoot,'' Meldrum said. "The exhibit attempts to use the topic of Bigfoot as a springboard to analyze different ways of knowing. A variety of those things intersect with the subject matter at hand.''
Bolding mine.
What I would like to know is what Meldrum means when he says “different ways of knowing”? More to the point, I am uncomfortable with his use of the word “knowing” in the context that he uses it. He seems to be implying that operating from different paradigms when evaluating evidence has equal validity. And if that is the case, and I'm not saying that it is, I would question the motives of the exhibitors at a museum dedicated to presenting what science is to the public.
Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words. Perhaps I am nit picking. I sure hope so…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 10:42:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I would like to know is what Meldrum means when he says “different ways of knowing”? More to the point, I am uncomfortable with his use of the word “knowing” in the context that he uses it. He seems to be implying that operating from different paradigms when evaluating evidence has equal validity. And if that is the case, and I'm not saying that it is, I would question the motives of the exhibitors at a museum dedicated to presenting what science is to the public.
Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words. Perhaps I am nit picking. I sure hope so…
That blew right by me!
I wonder how this display will be set up. Now it's worth seeing for no better reason than whaddafuck?.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 13:32:39 [Permalink]
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Now to put in my 2 cents.
My father works as a curator for a natural history museum. So, I have a bit of an inside glance into how these things are put together.
Some exhibits do better than others. That does not mean that science should get thrown to the backseat. People are very interested in large animals. even more so if these animals are mysterious. Thankfully nature has provided us with all sorts of mysterious large animals already. One of the more popular exhibits at my dad's museum recently, dealt with sexual selection in lions. it was very, very cool. When science does get the shaft from a museum, that museum stops doing a service to the public. some place in Kansas backed out of taking the lion exhibit because it mentioned Darwin. 
Now, Bigfoot. Unlike Creationism, believers in Bigfoot don't try to actively destroy science. instead, they try to find evidence for something that seems to be quite unlikely. I don't follow this kind of thing , but I don't feel like the fraudsters represent the majority of Bigfoot seekers.
It's a big world out there, and these people may yet find what their looking for. Science does owe people like this some gratitude. without citizens who ceaselessly look for an animal that would appear not to exist, we may never have rediscovered the Ivory Billed Woodpecker. |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
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