|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2006 : 19:36:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You are wrong, and you have failed to show anything to support your position. Just because you repeat your position does not make it right. Here is retired Colonel Ann Wright to show you where you're wrong.
http://thankyoult.live.radicaldesigns.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=1
I note that Col. Wright is not a JAG lawyer nor was one during her time in the service. As such, she is not an expert and is considered opinion.
I have specifically linked to the Geneva Convention, pointed out the specific passages to you which refute your position. You dismiss them with hand waving.
I agree that merely repeating a charge without providing sources for your contention will not make an assertation correct. I have not done this.
I accept that you believe that this war is unjust and illegal. I note, however, that you have no credible evidence supporting that contention and that treaties specifically covering this set of circumstances go counter to your assertation.
Again, Gorgo, the burden of proof is on you. You have asserted that the Lt. is merely disobeying an illegal order. In light of the Geneva Convention of 46, can you point out where orders to engage in warfare against an armed and beligerent military by another armed and beligerent military is classified as an illegal order?
The fact that the military was activated to engage another country's forces in a manner counter to international law does not make the order to deploy and fight illegal. While the subtle difference eludes you, it is there. The individuals are held to the level of responsibility that is expected of their rank and function. The leaders of countries are held responsible for ordering the troops into battle. The officers are held responsible for the conduct of the men under their command. The men at the lowest levels are held responsible for their own actions.
The Geneva Convention of 46 delineates that civilians shall not be targeted in a war zone specifically, that efforts to minimize civilian casualties shall be made, that enemy troops which are captured shall be treated in a humane way and protected from harm. None of these are related to orders to deploy and engage an enemy military.
Even Nuremburg only focused on the conduct which was later delineated in the Geneva Convention of 46. None of the German soldiers was ever prosecuted for merely obeying an order to deploy and engage the enemy. None, Gorgo.
Again, sir, I note a complete lack of support for your position. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
 |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 02:24:44 [Permalink]
|
I'm sorry, I missed the part of the Geneva Convention that makes Nuremberg and the UN Charter irrelevant. The UCMJ may be what the military obeys, but that does not trump the Constitution of the U.S. and international law.
I have given you lawyer's opinions, but they are just interpretations of the law and not what any particular judge will follow. Her opinion is really no better or worse than theirs, except in my opinion, it is consistent with international law.
http://www.genevaconventions.org/
"According to the Charter of the United Nations, every state has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity, or political independence of any state. ( Protocol I, Preamble )"
"The Geneva Conventions must not be construed as legitimizing or authorizing any act of aggression or any other use of force inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations. ( Protocol I, Preamble)"
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 05:01:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm sorry, I missed the part of the Geneva Convention that makes Nuremberg and the UN Charter irrelevant. The UCMJ may be what the military obeys, but that does not trump the Constitution of the U.S. and international law.
I have given you lawyer's opinions, but they are just interpretations of the law and not what any particular judge will follow. Her opinion is really no better or worse than theirs, except in my opinion, it is consistent with international law.
http://www.genevaconventions.org/
"According to the Charter of the United Nations, every state has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity, or political independence of any state. ( Protocol I, Preamble )"
"The Geneva Conventions must not be construed as legitimizing or authorizing any act of aggression or any other use of force inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations. ( Protocol I, Preamble)"
I'm sorry, I missed the part of the documents that you cite that hold individual soldiers responsible for the actions of nations.
I object to your over-generalizing my position.
I still note a lack of credible evidence for your assertion. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 08:01:39 [Permalink]
|
The law is made by the powerful for the powerful, so Watada will spend some hard time, probably unable to communicate with anyone other than a few people. This is bravery, integrity and honor.
The only way terrorism will end is when people like Watada refuse to participate in it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 09:09:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The law is made by the powerful for the powerful, so Watada will spend some hard time, probably unable to communicate with anyone other than a few people. This is bravery, integrity and honor.
The only way terrorism will end is when people like Watada refuse to participate in it.
That's right. And that is a point that can only be argued as a matter of opinion. What Watada did is a brave thing in my opinion. No one said protest is easy. It was the action of people like Watada, willing to go to jail for their beliefs, that turned the American people against the war in Viet Nam. His is a legitimate form of protest.
Now Gorgo, you should stop while you are ahead on at least one point made…
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 09:19:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The only way terrorism will end is when people like Watada refuse to participate in it.
So you beleive that if we stop fighting terrorism it will go away? Or are you saying that the real terrorist is the US and Islamic terrorists are justified in killing non military individuals? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 10:09:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Or are you saying that the real terrorist is the US and Islamic terrorists are justified in killing non military individuals?
Are they terrorists because they're Islamic, or are they terrorists because they engage in war against an aggressor? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 10:19:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
That's right. And that is a point that can only be argued as a matter of opinion. What Watada did is a brave thing in my opinion. No one said protest is easy. It was the action of people like Watada, willing to go to jail for their beliefs, that turned the American people against the war in Viet Nam. His is a legitimate form of protest.
Now Gorgo, you should stop while you are ahead on at least one point made…
I'd like to see the movie, "SIR, NO SIR." I didn't realize how much it was defiance within the military that helped to stop the war when it finally did stop, although the damage had pretty much been done by then. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 11:31:04 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That's right. And that is a point that can only be argued as a matter of opinion. What Watada did is a brave thing in my opinion. No one said protest is easy. It was the action of people like Watada, willing to go to jail for their beliefs, that turned the American people against the war in Viet Nam. His is a legitimate form of protest.
Now Gorgo, you should stop while you are ahead on at least one point made…
quote:
I'd like to see the movie, "SIR, NO SIR." I didn't realize how much it was defiance within the military that helped to stop the war when it finally did stop, although the damage had pretty much been done by then.
I didn't mean to imply that it was only those in the military, or those who came home with a changed mind about the war that changed people's minds about it. It was the whole movement including people who went to jail for refusing enlistment, or went to Canada, or who actively protested the war… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 11:43:08 [Permalink]
|
| Sure. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 11:55:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Now Gorgo, you should stop while you are ahead on at least one point made…
That is the point. There is no question that Tokyo and Nuremberg both said that to stop things that are illegal is everyone's responsibility, not just soldiers. It would be a mitigating factor to say that someone who thought they were defending their country was following orders in a system that made anything else almost impossible. That does not make what they did legal. Since the law was made by those that do not intend to follow the law, there is no reason to think they'll follow that law in this instance, but I certainly understand and support Watada's need to follow it. I wish we all, including myself, had that kind of integrity and courage. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 18:04:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The only way terrorism will end is when people like Watada refuse to participate in it.
So you beleive that if we stop fighting terrorism it will go away?
Terrorism shouldn't be fought with the military. The Military is a blunt force weapon with lots of collateral damage.
Terrorism is best fought by a domestic police force, and by addressing the underlying cause of the terrorism: social and economic exclusion. People need to feel that they have the ability to control their situation.
Economic and social misery, non-existent education, and the feeling of being isolated are all important factors that create the recruiting ground for extremist organisations.
No matter where they are. In the middle east, it's extremist Islam. In Germany 75 years ago it was a Social Nationalist movement.
The discontent makes it easy to find unity by defining an outer enemy, be they Jews, homosexuals, or decadent Imperialistic Americans.
quote:
Or are you saying that the real terrorist is the US and Islamic terrorists are justified in killing non military individuals?
I say they are both terrorists. The American military have non-military Arab's blood on their hands too. The war in Iraq was not motivated, and by now, as many American soldiers has died as the number of civilians in the 9/11-attack. I've been told you could count close to 100 Arabs for each American life. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What I see here is a very polarised view of what's happening. Robb, Americans are not Angels as much as Arabs are terrorists. Both sides are guilty of atrocities. I understand that seeing all in black-or-white like that helps you sleep better at night. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 18:30:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Terrorism shouldn't be fought with the military.
Everyone said that 9/11 changed things. It did. It brought us back to 4th Century thinking. Murder thousands in Afghanistan and hundreds of thousands in Iraq that had nothing to do with it for what? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2006 : 20:02:12 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo, you want to provide some evidence for your position?
Find us one case of a German soldier who was tried for the act of fighting in Hitler's wars of conquest.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
