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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2006 : 20:15:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If you think about it, the story of some serpent in a garden and that's how childbirth came to be painful and people came to wear clothes is just as silly as any other myth of the same caliber.
Yes, silly. Also, when we hear a similar creation myths explaining why things are as they are, they can seem quaint and "charming" when coming from some primitive people or other. But when such "just-so" tales are used in modern society to support modern agendas of a bigoted, paternalistic ideology which has long had blood on its hands, their charm mysteriously evaporates.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/03/2006 20:16:42 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2006 : 22:00:46 [Permalink]
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Maybe lifelong is gone forever, but heck I want to play too so here goes:quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Evil things happen in an evil world and that's the consequences of not including God in our world. We try and root Him completely from our lives and countries but then blame Him for the bad that is going on.
Not according to http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2006/2006-7.html, a 2006 review paper from the Journal of Religion and Society. It says, in part: quote:
Gregory Paul most recently highlighted the view that religious variables can have negative consequences. In an analysis of eighteen prosperous nations, Paul reports positive relationships between a variety of measures of religiosity and homicide rates as well as other social problems. He concludes that secular nations have lower homicide rates and less serious social problems than found in the United States.
...
Recent research on homicide among cities in the United States reports findings quite compatible with the religious passion argument. Among southern cities, Ellison, Burr, and McCall found the percent of evangelical Protestants to be a positive correlate of homicide rates when other relevant variables were controlled. As a type of social bond or a type of conventional activity, religion may inhibit a variety of types crime, but measures of religiosity that tap into religious passion, evangelical dualism, or belief in malevolent forces may have the opposite effect on homicide. [boldface added]
OK, so you can go ahead now and cite some data that supports your position.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
It's not logical to exclude God from your life and then say, "if there is a God I don't want anything to do with Him because of all the bad that has happened." when that bad happened in the first place because of a lack of inclusion.
Sure it is! Especially if "the bad that has happened" includes God's own actions.
Check out all the killing God hath wrought, including:
- the flood (Gen 7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died)
- the rain of sulfur and fire on the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah
- the ten plagues in Exodus (including death of the firstborn)
- the slaughter of the Midianites (and slavery, presumably sexual, of their virgin girls) as God ordered Moses to arrange in Numbers 31
- a plague among the Israelites because they didn't kill enough Midianites in Numbers 31:15-16
- 42 boys mauled by bears after being cursed in the name of God in 2 Kings 2:24
- ...it goes on.
Boy, your impeccable logic has convinced me...this is a God to admire and follow. Nothing bad will happen if He's around. [/sarcasm]
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
I look around and see the complexity of our world and I know, as everyone does at one time, that there is a God of some kind. Accompany that with a strong inner conviction and the innate tendancy humans have toward their creator and that gives me the faith to follow the bible.
Speak for yourself. The complexity of the world doesn't say that to me. And, try: "Accompany that with a neurobiological impulse to see patterns and causes, and to desire certainty and simple explanations when there may be none" and you may have a good explanation for the human tendency for faith.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Couple those things with the fact that around 300 prophecies were given many hundred before Jesus Christ birth (this is undisputed because the documents have been dated to before Christ) and the fact that historical documents show that Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies. Not the bible, but historical documents.
List some prophecies, please! One of my favorite exercises is refuting them. (I won't even try this explanation for the incredibly amazing accuracy of the prophecies in predicting Jesus: the authors of the gospels knew about the prophecies when they wrote their "histories" of Jesus. But I see no point in suggesting that, as I'm quite sure you'll insist that couldn't possibly be true. Right?
quote:
There is more evidence for the existence of Christ than almost any person from early world history. His existence is very rarely disputed even among secular historians.
Citations, please. Reasonable ones, not religious nuts.
quote:
Also, despite what you may say, the bible has never been disproven. Men have dedicated their lives to disproving the bible and ended up becoming a believer. The bible has actually been found to correct secular history on things such as the succession of kings in the old testament.
Citations, please. And then I/we can rebut. I especially like to list the several errors that the author of the Book of Daniel made, in the part of the book that was supposed to be "recent history", before he even gets to the supposed "prophecies". Or, you could just go look it up yourself; there are many sources, including good old Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Historical_accuracy
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Would I like to see all of you accept Christ? Of course! This is what I believe and have devoted my life to. But, i'm not going to try and do it with my own wisdom and shove it down your throats with a bullet-proof argument. That's not the point. And i'm quite sure God can take care of himself.
You have a bullet-proof argument? I can't wait to hear it!
[edited to add boldface] |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 07/03/2006 22:03:03 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2006 : 05:55:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
And i'm quite sure God can take care of himself.
Then what the hell are you doing raving and frothing in this forum???? Fucking hypocrite. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2006 : 08:08:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
To Moakley:
quote:
lifeloss as you can tell by the responses your are going to need something a bit more substantial than, "The Bible is the word of God and I believe it because it says that it is the word of God."
I never said this or even alluded to it. I believe because I have experienced these things. I look around and see the complexity of our world and I know, as everyone does at one time, that there is a God of some kind.
What I find interesting is how little time it took you to confirm what I said. You did it in your response to me even.
quote:
quote:
If there is a creator god, I suspect that it will be very displeased with your use of the tools that you were given.
Displeased that I follow His book and only His book? Isn't that kind of the point. Help me with this one.
Pretty much the "Bible is the word of God because it says that it is the word of God" don't you think?
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Couple those things with the fact that around 300 prophecies were given many hundred before Jesus Christ birth (this is undisputed because the documents have been dated to before Christ) and the fact that historical documents show that Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies.
If I am correct, which I believe that I am, then what we have are authors of later books incorporating what authors of the earlier books said. In essence they were predicting the past. Not so prophetic when viewed through the eyes of reason.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Not the bible, but historical documents. There is more evidence for the existence of Christ than almost any person from early world history.
We have no record of Christ writing to anyone, or anyone ever writing to him. We have only what people wrote about him 1900-1950 years ago. That seems incredibly incomplete. So he could be just another fiction.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
quote:
You can no longer critically consider the merit of ideas based upon the available evidence
You mean like an idea that concludes species evolve to other species based on blind faith? Does anyone know what really happened billions of years ago? Were you there? I wasn't.
You seem to find eye witness testimonies compelling. Yet the best you can do for your Christ myth are accounts of his life recorded (at best) 20 years after, but more likely 50-90 years after.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
How do you know that you're interpreting the data correctly? The same questions you pose to me can be turned on you as well. And I already know I will hear some response like, "evolution is based on years of verifiable evidence including trends and fossils and .........." Have you personally verified this information yourself? Are you sure nothing was biased or altered?
What we have through various fields of science is a convergence of evidence. What we learn from the use of the scientific methods is that frauds and hoaxes are soon reveiled. If evolution were a hoax it too would have been reveiled as such, by science itself. Faith, testimonials, and ignorance of the facts do not get you too far in science. So if I am brainwashed, then that too will be revieled by science, not through faith in some 2000 year old mythology.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
Finally, why are you bringing apologists like Pascal into this argument? It doesn't make your statement any stronger. It's a ploy to try and attach an extremely old, tired and mind-numbingly boring label to this debate.
Apologies. It was an attempt at humor that failed.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
I don't try and justify or prove Cristianity. If it's real it doesn't matter if we believe or not it's still going to be real. I am giving you my beliefs and interpretations to answer questions and comments for the sake of debate. Would I like to see all of you accept Christ? Of course! This is what I believe and have devoted my life to. But, i'm not going to try and do it with my own wisdom and shove it down your throats with a bullet-proof argument.
You don't have a bullet proof argument.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
And i'm quite sure God can take care of himself.
Yes and that is why blasphemy laws have never existed. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2006 : 11:28:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
It's not logical to exclude God from your life and then say, "if there is a God I don't want anything to do with Him because of all the bad that has happened." when that bad happened in the first place because of a lack of inclusion.
That's bollshit!
I have personal experience that total inclusion does not make any difference what-so-ever. Closer to the contrary, lot of bad shit happened during my devout christial life. The difference was that indoctrination made me blame myself instead of accepting that it was just random unfortunate circumstances. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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