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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2006 : 04:03:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
How is it an insult if it is what I believe is occurring?
In the way you said it. It is not only the thing you say, but also the way of saying it that is important.
Instead of saying:
quote:
Well, do I take Dave's approach with Mozina's thread and keep going until ToSeek realizes he is not looking at my post objectively, or do I give up?
You might also have said "For me, it seems like you're not being objective here." It tells someone the same thing, but without unnecessary hints to insane people and by setting it up as your own feelings instead of being "true, without question".
quote:
How is it an insult to lack objectivity?
If I were a moderator who tries to be as objective on this as possible, this hits close to home. It becomes insultive if you compare someone with known idiots.
The rest I cannot really comment upon, since it goes for deeper into the issue as I care to go. You may be correct that ToSeek was not objective, or you might not be. With the way you said that to him, only very few people would actually listen to you.
You asked which sentence could be looked on as derogatory or insulting. I fail to see how your reference to Mozina in combination with the sentence structure would not be seen as such. Especially if it is an issue which apparantly has a longer history as just these posts. On top of that, I've reread this thread and saw that ToSeek has apologized on a number of issues. He has acknowledged that his language was too inflammatory. I do not see you acknowledging his responses to that, which further adds to the tension.
From what I see in this thread, it would seem to me that if you want to further pursue this issue, you might do well to voice your opinions more carefull and to acknowledge apologies made. Only that way will he be put in a more receptive mood to listen to the other things you have to say. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 08:39:02 [Permalink]
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As noted above, it sometimes comes down to a matter of style. Especially when you are convinced that you are right.
In another thread you said contractors “lie lie lie”. Since I had already said I was a contractor, how was I supposed to take that? We all know that there are hacks in my profession, but good grief! You could have made your point without attacking my entire profession.
You speak with a lot of passion, beskeptigal, and that is often a good thing. One doesn't need a Geiger counter to figure out where you're coming from. And I still agree that the subject you were attempting to address at BAUT is an important one.
You may not get the satisfaction from ToSeek that you wish to get. And while it may be that you are offended by his take on your replies, that happens even among people who agree on most things. You certainly didn't amend your statement in the construction thread after I pointed it out, so, if I wanted to I could easily conclude that you think I am a liar. See how that works?
No one enjoys having his or her integrity attacked. And that is really what the issue is now, isn't it? Let me offer some advice. ToSeek has offered an olive branch to you. You should probably take it even though it doesn't meet with your full satisfaction. You have made your case for all to see, and so has ToSeek. It's time to move on…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 11:14:34 [Permalink]
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No, I think ToSeek gave up. He may yet return.
I'm a contractor too. I contract with employers to provide medical services to their employees. And I certainly don't lie to customers. I should have said the last 3 general construction contractors I had do major remodeling on my house outright lied saying they could and/or would do what I asked. Then when the time came, they either just didn't do it or made excuses. I interpreted that as saying anything to the customer to get the job, then once the contract is signed, it isn't easy to stop the work.
I had my house re-sided. I signed the work order in April. I said specifically they needed to be finished by Oct 1st because I was too busy in Oct Nov to be having workers coming and going. They didn't even start until mid-October. It was a big mess. My choices were to go ahead anyway or cancel the work and wait a whole year to restart. Prices would be higher and I would have had to re-caulk all the leaking windows as a temporary fix. I won't bother explaining all the lies they gave me about the painters. After 4 attempts in the rain, here it is a year later and the painting was never finished, even after a dry warm summer.
When I had an addition put on the house, I asked the general contractor to dig a pipe trench by hand to protect the tree roots of a hundred foot fir next to the house. I came home and found them using a back hoe anyway. They tried to do it when I wasn't looking. Now here it is 10 years later and just as I feared, the tree has been dying branch by branch since the work. I'm going to have to take it down this year. They severed major roots and the tree cannot get enough water even with time to re-grow the roots.
Workers stepped through my skylight. They denied it but later admitted it. I had a guy try to tell me a vacuum hose was rotted out when I brought my car in for a new clutch. I drove it in, and now it wouldn't start. I came back with re-enforcements (a man) and suddenly the hose was fine, they said it was just unhooked. As if one couldn't have seen the difference! I have story after story.
So if you think it represents a fluke, then I certainly have bad luck. I think there are many honest and dishonest people out there obviously. But I have come to believe that the majority of construction contractors think nothing of promising what they know they cannot deliver to get the job. It certainly wouldn't be every contractor but it also seems to be a fairly common practice. I also think there is a lot of, "we can fool this female" bias out there.
From the perspective of someone who doesn't anticipate how a comment I make will be interpreted, I apologize. But I've explained myself over and over here. If you don't like what you interpret, how about asking before taking it personal? Some people are better than others at diplomatic conversation. I am not. But I'll always try to correct something if brought to my attention.
Unlike being directly called a liar, insincere, disingenuous, etc., your complaints are of unintended interpretations which I will readily apologize for.
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 10:23:29 [Permalink]
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I know Phil and Fraser all too well... and just a couple weeks ago they both were here in town for Dragon*Con. Phil even at a huge Skeptic meeting in the main ballroom at the Hilton here gave a little rant about his new forums and how they are cracking down fiercely on people that try to talk about religion and such on the boards. They only want science, and mainly Astronomy topics on that board. They feel as if there are enough other places to get the other information and outlets for people that want to talk about that stuff out there. And quite nicely he mentioned our boards at Skepticality as one of those other places to go. I chimed in with here and the JREF as well since I was on the panel when he did it! :)
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Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/ |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 17:15:20 [Permalink]
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The issues on BAUT were never about discussing politics or religion, they were about double standards defining those, about mistaken assumptions of intent, and not accepting a person's word for it the assumption of intent was wrong. It's frustrating to keep having to repeat that.
Just so you know, the post on BAUT was about communicating, not about politics or religion. To limit discussion of the science of communication by prohibiting discussion on how it is used by the anti-science promoters is short sighted in my opinion. Especially given the discussions about evolution and global warming that cross into politics and religion all the time there. For that reason I am replying on the two threads I started on BAUT but won't be posting there after that unless a little more common sense and reason returns.
But no matter, an exchange of PMs with Phil resolved any questions there. ToSeek can believe what he wants. Antonseb never did explain himself about accepting a change to make my post in compliance instead of locked and tinaa never did justify her strange claim that if you told someone their church might be using marketing techniques they would be offended. I'm not sure these big congregations are exactly keeping that a secret. I thought they were ecstatic with the successes and bragging about the methods.
I'll take your post as an invitation to visit your forum then.  Don't know why I haven't been there yet. JREF has a pack of rabid pro Bushies (or something, I haven't quite got a handle on yet) that fill up any political thread pages with trite comments lacking much in the way of any real debate. I come here for refuge.
It isn't that I don't want to hear other points of view. It's that on JREF I spend a great deal of time supporting mine only to be ignored. I thought we had a pretty good exchange here on the Lebanon bombing. No one need change their mind but points of view were shared rather than just dismissive comments.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2006 : 17:59:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Derek:
And quite nicely he mentioned our boards at Skepticality as one of those other places to go. I chimed in with here and the JREF as well since I was on the panel when he did it! :)
Thank you Derek! We also do our best to promote your show. In fact, it is on our main menu…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2006 : 04:40:51 [Permalink]
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I KNOW Kil... I am more than grateful for all that you have done here for our little show! :) One of the reasons I had to take the time to mention your boards here to a captive audience. That panel with Myself, Phil, Fraser Cain, and Swoopy at Dragon*Con was a big hit. There were about 300 people there, they gave us the biggest room in the building for it. At first I didn't think that we would fill the room since they had 250 empty seats in this big room, and then around 10 mins before the talk started, they all filled up, and even a ton of people I knew from my normal life started to fill in the back for standing room only. Even my next door neighbor came! He only moved into his new house like a month ago, and I had no idea he was a Skeptic! That was nice to know, made me happy that I had something in common with the new people next door since I end up having to see them every day! :)
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Derek:
And quite nicely he mentioned our boards at Skepticality as one of those other places to go. I chimed in with here and the JREF as well since I was on the panel when he did it! :)
Thank you Derek! We also do our best to promote your show. In fact, it is on our main menu…
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Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/ |
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