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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2006 : 00:34:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Yep, English Common Law.
Once one of these idiots makes some false claim like the 10 Commandments are the basis of US law, the rest of the idiots just repeat it as if it were fact. Someone needs to correct this fallacy before it grows any bigger.
I am sure they believe Democracy is a Christian invention too.
It is ironic that the economy of Texas was fueled by the oil and gas industry - which relies on sedimentary geology (incompatible with Creationism) to find the stuff.
Remember - this is the state that produced George Dubya - nuff said.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 03:48:20 [Permalink]
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As I said,
In another thread:
"They grows 'em big,
And they grows 'em dumb,
In Texas....."
I think that any violence, if such should go down, will be initiated by the theocrats if they achieve the power that they covet. Because, you see, there is really no limit to desire. We have seen this in action; when they gain a little, or a lot, they immediately begin grasping for more.
And that goes for everybody, really, not just the Bible-floggers. We all have that shameful bit of greed in our makeup -- the difference being that some of us have a conscience and control this base instinct.
Like others here, I don't think it'll happen that way, but me'n 'mooner'll keep the Mossbergs handy none the less.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 08:37:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude:
The need for it (violence), however, is inevitable and unavoidable in most situations where some application of force (any of the many kinds of force) is required. It is a lesson history teaches us. The MLKs and Ghandis of the world are insignificant in number compared to the number of times violent force has settled an issue.
Well, yes. But in all fairness, civil disobedience is historically a very young tactic. And it has shown itself to be effective. I'm not sure it's fair to compare “the number of times violent force has settled an issue” since violent force is an ancient tactic.
The problem I see with civil disobedience here in America is that it requires an enormous amount of discipline. I would like to think that we could get it together for that kind of resistance, but I'm not sure we can. Like all resistance movements it would take a very charismatic leader for us to rally behind the idea in order to pull it off…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 08:50:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
The MLKs and Ghandis of the world are insignificant in number compared to the number of times violent force has settled an issue.
Cooperation actually settles most issues. Generally, killing large numbers of people just kills large numbers of people.
Violence includes birth. Generally speaking, those who advocate nonviolence, mean different things at different times. Gandhi supported India, which has a violent side, and said he would not advise everyone to take up his ideas.
"Gandhi guarded against attracting to his satyagraha movement those who feared to take up arms or felt themselves incapable of resistance. 'I do believe,' he wrote, 'that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghandi |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 10:42:53 [Permalink]
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Looking at the WA State Rep Party Platform, you have to wonder if it is even the same party. This one is pretty old Republican standard. At a quick glance the only religious stuff was to keep "under God" in the pledge of allegiance and there's a reference to all life being sacred or something to that effect.
I wonder what these guys think of their brothers in TX? |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 11:21:29 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: quote:
The MLKs and Ghandis of the world are insignificant in number compared to the number of times violent force has settled an issue.
That doesn't really show how well nonviolent civil disobediance works compared against violent resistance. You are implying that violence is more common because it works better, but it might just be more common because it is easier.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not a full-blown pacifist. I do agree with military or other violent intervention, but only as a truly last resort. If someone attacks me in my home, I will most certainly resist with violent force. But in regards to something as widescale as a potential civil war between an oppressed group and those in power, it seems to me when I look at history that violence resistent, even when it ultimately works, ends up created whole new problems as well as causing a whole heck of a lot of destruction. I'd like to believe I'd have the courage and control to only engage in nonviolent forms of resistance.
Kil wrote: quote:
Well, yes. But in all fairness, civil disobedience is historically a very young tactic. And it has shown itself to be effective. I'm not sure it's fair to compare “the number of times violent force has settled an issue” since violent force is an ancient tactic.
I wasn't only referring to organized civil disobediance. Other forms of institutionalized oppression have ended without violent force. The witch burnings in England ended when enough of the respected population was criticizing the practice. Also, slavery has ended in many parts of the world not due primarily to uprisings, but because of numerous escapes, other forms of nonviolent resistence, social criticism from various parts of the society, etc. Oftentimes violent resistence has worked with nonviolent force to achieve ends too.
And let us not forget how often violent resistence has failed, such as the Christian uprisings during Japan's period of isolation and the three horribly unsuccessful slave uprisings in Rome. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 11:34:13 [Permalink]
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Here are links to Wikipedia's entries on the Shimabara Rebellion in Japan and the Three Roman Servile Wars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimabara_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Servile_Wars
Some people have argued that such horrible failures are inspirational stories of conviction and they back the mentality that it is more noble and satisfying to die while attacking one's oppressor than to die while being oppressed. Who isn't stirred by the movie Spartacus?
But I think that the problem with that argument is that it ignores what resulted from the failed attempts in those specific times and places, rather than in the broad view of history. They not only ended in many many more deaths and tortures, but they gave the oppressors a reason to be extra harsh and use the rebels as an example to warn future potential resistors. They made it less likely for neutral parties or parties on the fence to not sympathize and hardened the oppressors who would sleep better at night knowing they shot down someone who was fighting opposed to killing a man engaged in a totally peaceful act. Worse of all, they helped strengthen the oppressors' military by testing it and giving it a reason to bulk up for possible future uprisings.
Edited to fix some grammar problems.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/17/2006 11:37:07 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 14:19:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Halfmooner wrote: quote:
Because, make no mistake, a fully theocratic regime in the US would be something that would scream out to every Democracy-loving person in this land to rise up in armed revolt to restore the Constitution.
Speak for yourself, Half. Some of us Democracy-loving persons think (and for good reason) that violence is more likely to worsen situations than solve them. Didn't you learn anything from MLK Jr. and Ghandi? Both of them fought horrible oppression without resorting to arms.
Besides, there is always the alternative (at least for those of us with some money and skills) of getting the hell out of Dodge. If real persecution against skeptics ever occurs we might even be able to get refugee status!
Of course, I speak for myself. Nonviolence? Been there, done that, marfknox. There are times when nonviolence works, and times when it doesn't. Even Ghandi recognized this. I was schooled in, and used, nonviolence as a teen in the early 60's. I met and spoke with Martin Luther King, Jr. I was member of the San Diego chapter of CORE in the early 1960's. We used nonviolence successfully to get Bank of America to begin employing black people in public jobs. Later, in 1965 as I was serving in the Navy, I participated in antiwar demonstrations, including a 50-mile march to the Concord Naval Weapons Station. After leaving the Navy in 1967, I gradually became more radical for some time. At an antiwar march in 1967, I participated in a fist-fight against uniformed, swastika-arm-banded brown-shirts from George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party, when they attacked us. I've deeply considered violence and nonviolence as a participant in both.
If an American theocratic fascism does become established, it is my considered opinion that it will use naked violence to enforce its will, and in the main would be undeterred by moral suasion. I will not say that nonviolence would be totally ineffective against such a regime -- there may be some important moral statements made through nonviolence, which would serve to rally the rebels. But I fear that ultimately, it would be a matter of force that would settle the question. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto had it right. They knew the Nazis would likely kill them either way, but determined to go down fighting. They knew the Nazis would not be persuaded by nonviolence. The "Restorationist" movement to bring back the Constitution would have much, much better prospects than did the Warsaw Jews.
If our remaining freedoms are not worth fighting for, I don't know what is. I am not making a call to arms, however, but I am suggesting that such a call would be in order in the unlikely event that a theocratic coup actually takes place. Not all of us would run to other countries, though this is a legitimate choice. Nonviolent struggle by itself would simply not do the job, in my opinion.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/17/2006 14:22:23 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 15:38:16 [Permalink]
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Non-violent resistance works only against a rational enemy who, in truth, holds many of the same values you do.
When the gap in values is wide, or your opponent is irrational, most forms of non-violent force (negotiation, passive resistance, economic sanctions, etc) will fail.
marfknox said:
quote:
That doesn't really show how well nonviolent civil disobediance works compared against violent resistance. You are implying that violence is more common because it works better, but it might just be more common because it is easier.
I'm implying that non-violence fails often, leaving violent force as the only remaining method of settling the issue/s. Review the history of wars and you will find that most of them were preceded by periods of attempted negotiation or some other non-violent attempts to resolve conflict. Not all, but the majority. There are, of course, some big examples (wars of conquest, for example) that don't follow that form.
kil said:
quote:
Well, yes. But in all fairness, civil disobedience is historically a very young tactic. And it has shown itself to be effective. I'm not sure it's fair to compare “the number of times violent force has settled an issue” since violent force is an ancient tactic.
It is effective, just as long as your opponent is rational and holds similair values to you. Otherwise they will just shoot you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 17:44:29 [Permalink]
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I think if you look for it, you'll find that nonviolence had successful campaigns under Hitler's reign.
I can't say that Great Britain wasn't a pretty brutal regime, either. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 22:37:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think if you look for it, you'll find that nonviolence had successful campaigns under Hitler's reign.
Reference?
Not saying you aren't right, just that I'd need to see an account of it to believe it. If it did happen it certainly wasn;t the usual outcome of resistance to the 3rd reich.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 23:39:45 [Permalink]
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http://www.nonviolence.org/issues/philo-nv4.php
see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_resistance :
In Germany during World War II
main article: German Resistance.
Even in Berlin, capital of the Third Reich, Nonviolent Resistance was effectively used to save Jewish lives. In 1943, Frau Israel and other non-Jewish ("Aryan") women protested against the deportation of their Jewish husbands to Auschwitz. The women were in real danger of being massacred themselves. At one point, the SS set up machine guns on Rose Street where the protest was held. In the end, however, the deportations were halted, and some men came back from Auschwitz with their numbers tattooed on their arms. The Nazis planned to exterminate both the Jewish men and their non-Jewish wives after the end of the War, but this was prevented by the victory of the Allies.
The White Rose student group, including Sophie Scholl, distributed leaflets encouraging Germans to stop Hitler.
The Confessing Church (Bekennende Kirche) was a Christian resistance movement in Nazi Germany.
[edit]
'In Norway during World War II
Norway's teachers, in spite of great suffering, successfully prevented the Nazification of Norway's educational system and society attempted by collaborationist leader Vidkun Quisling.' |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/17/2006 23:41:34 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 01:02:17 [Permalink]
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Learn something new every day.
This bit, however, is rather telling:
quote:
The Nazis planned to exterminate both the Jewish men and their non-Jewish wives after the end of the War, but this was prevented by the victory of the Allies.
It is interesting that anyone was able to achieve even short term results against the nazis though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 03:46:06 [Permalink]
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| Sometimes wars fail, too. We just invest more in them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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