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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2006 : 22:09:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Anyway, the moral of this story, Dave, is that swimmers might get trapped by the suction of your system and drown before the ship has a chance to right itself.
I understand your concern, but I'm thinking of drains large enough for an entire pool to be emptied in five to ten seconds. Gotta be fast to help keep the ship from tipping. So even if someone gets pinned against the grating, it'll only be a concern if they were already out of air when the drains opened. And even then, because my invention will keep the ship upright, the lifeguards will have plenty of time on a horizontal surface to get the water out of your lungs.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 22:17:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I understand your concern, but I'm thinking of drains large enough for an entire pool to be emptied in five to ten seconds.
You want to drain an entire pool in 5 seconds? Ok, forget drowning, you're going to have swimmers extruded through the grating like hamburger meat. Or at the very least, a few cracked skulls. But yes, the ship would be level.
Maybe you're idea will work. I don't want to sound too negative, but I just can't see it.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 22:26:23 [Permalink]
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| Hey, what if the entire bottom of the pool were the drain? More area equals a lower pressure on each body which isn't floating. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 22:35:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, what if the entire bottom of the pool were the drain? More area equals a lower pressure on each body which isn't floating.
This sounds more plausible.
However, depending on the depth of the pool, I can still see the possibility of injury. Imagine some little girl in armfloats hanging onto the side of the pool as she swims around the perimeter of the deep end. The water level drops rapidly, she panics and hangs onto the side for a few seconds. Finally, her strength gives out and she falls backward and lands on her head and dies. 
The only way I can truly see your idea working safely, Dave, is if they have time to clear all the swimming pools of people first.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/22/2006 22:36:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 22:57:01 [Permalink]
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It was just crazy-talk, anyway. Even if all four pools on the Crown Princess were to Olympic regulations, I sorta doubt that shifting less than 9% of her empty weight by less than half her width would really have helped all that much.
Ah, the Wiki article has been updated to blame a crewmember:A confidential source from the Coast Gaurd has allegedly told a Florida television station that a junior officer "panicked," then took the ship out of automatic pilot thinking the meter was showing that the ship was turning too sharply to one side. But instead of turning the Crown Princess back to the right, the junior officer accidentally kept the ship in an even sharper left hand turn -- almost like over-correcting in a car. This caused the massive 113,000-ton cruise ship to list severely, tumbling passengers, pool water and everything else on board into chaos. Nope, even the Dave-Righter is no match for incompetence.
By the way, I've seen documentary footage of an aircraft carrier undergoing sea trials, which included turns so sharp that the deck was tilted 30°. Crew on deck were laughing and having a grand time as they tilted the other way to stay upright, but nobody lost their footing completely. Of course, they didn't have huge sheets of pool-water coming at them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 03:17:04 [Permalink]
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So... back to the seamanship question, eh? quote:
A confidential source from the Coast Gaurd has allegedly told a Florida television station that a junior officer "panicked," then took the ship out of automatic pilot thinking the meter was showing that the ship was turning too sharply to one side. But instead of turning the Crown Princess back to the right, the junior officer accidentally kept the ship in an even sharper left hand turn -- almost like over-correcting in a car. This caused the massive 113,000-ton cruise ship to list severely, tumbling passengers, pool water and everything else on board into chaos.
Then again, is that the fragrance of scapegoat I smell?
A: what the hell is a 'junior officer' doing with his hands on the helm? That's the helmsman's job.
B: it is highly unlikely that this guy was alone on the bridge. It is simply not done that way for the very reasons shown.
It puts the cruise line in a, let us say: *ahem* delicate position. On the one hand, their ships are unseaworthy; on the other, their crews and command are incompetent. Or both, at least on the face of it.
The heaviest roll, measured by the bridge inclinometer, I have ever seen was during hurricane Donna in the early '60s. I was aboard the USS DeSoto Countly (LST 1171), and was the Sea Detail helmsman. I had my eyes all but welded to the repeater, but my lee helmsman, who had time to observe such things, told me it was 54 degrees.
We rode that storm out twice; once in the Carribean, untimatly out-running it, and again double-moored to the pier at Little Creek VA.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 12:30:22 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure if the Dave-Righter would be a net plus or net minus in a listing emergency, but on the face of it, Dave seems to have put more thought into it than did the marine engineers who designed multiple swimming pools on the upper decks of already top-heavy cruise ships.
So, you were in the Gator Navy, Filthy? On a "Large, Slow Target," yet? Were those seaworthy, or un-? I understood at the time (1965-1967) that service on an LST meant months and months at sea, with little liberty. I had the random opportunity to be assigned to the deck crew of the USS Aludra (AF-55). She was born as the Victory-class SS Matchless in 1946, then became a Navy refrigerated stores ship in time to be involved, as an actual, shooting participant, in the Korean War. She was not a fast or beautiful ship, but she was shaped like a seagoing vessel. As long as the Aludra had way on her, she could ride out almost any sea, and she was broad enough in the beam to handle being tossed around better than, say, a skinny little destroyer.
One good thing (some say the only good thing) about serving on a Reefer in the Working Navy is that we always had fresh food. But, man, we could work hard when replenishing the fleet at Yankee and Dixie Stations! I did love the intricate majesty of doing underway replenishments (UNREPS), with carriers getting their chow on the port side, while their escorts lined up one at a time on our starboard, and all of us steaming along in a very straight line.
You mentioned being the "sea detail" helmsman. If that was the same as our "special sea and anchor detail," that was a special navigational watch that was called for critical situations, such as bad storms, and entering a port. Everyone on the watch was considered the very best that the ship had to offer in each category. You were clearly considered by your skipper to be the very best helmsman aboard the DeSoto County.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/23/2006 12:33:58 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 14:06:07 [Permalink]
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Here's Filthy's ship:
USS DeSoto County (LST-1171)
And mine:
USS Aludra (AF-55)
Both ships are scrap now, but Google brought back their likenesses in seconds.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/23/2006 14:07:03 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 03:56:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I'm not sure if the Dave-Righter would be a net plus or net minus in a listing emergency, but on the face of it, Dave seems to have put more thought into it than did the marine engineers who designed multiple swimming pools on the upper decks of already top-heavy cruise ships.
So, you were in the Gator Navy, Filthy? On a "Large, Slow Target," yet? Were those seaworthy, or un-? I understood at the time (1965-1967) that service on an LST meant months and months at sea, with little liberty. I had the random opportunity to be assigned to the deck crew of the USS Aludra (AF-55). She was born as the Victory-class SS Matchless in 1946, then became a Navy refrigerated stores ship in time to be involved, as an actual, shooting participant, in the Korean War. She was not a fast or beautiful ship, but she was shaped like a seagoing vessel. As long as the Aludra had way on her, she could ride out almost any sea, and she was broad enough in the beam to handle being tossed around better than, say, a skinny little destroyer.
One good thing (some say the only good thing) about serving on a Reefer in the Working Navy is that we always had fresh food. But, man, we could work hard when replenishing the fleet at Yankee and Dixie Stations! I did love the intricate majesty of doing underway replenishments (UNREPS), with carriers getting their chow on the port side, while their escorts lined up one at a time on our starboard, and all of us steaming along in a very straight line.
You mentioned being the "sea detail" helmsman. If that was the same as our "special sea and anchor detail," that was a special navigational watch that was called for critical situations, such as bad storms, and entering a port. Everyone on the watch was considered the very best that the ship had to offer in each category. You were clearly considered by your skipper to be the very best helmsman aboard the DeSoto County.
You did indeed have to be good. We used to steer within 1/2 degree of rudder angle and course during at-sea highline, fueling, and replenishing maneuvers, as well as entering and leaving port. During heavy weather, they sometimes set Sea Detail on the bridge, and I‘m not really sure why. All of those course changes were anything but precision.
I've been alongside many a Reefer -- you guys certainly did work hard!
During my first hitch, I was a Boatswain's Mate / Salvage diver. On the Lousy Stinkin' Tubs, I held down the diver's billet as well as having a deck assignment. I was also an Assault Boat Coxswain. I changed over to Shipfitter just before my second hitch and became a 1st Class Diver (helium qualified), and worked with UDT as a powder monkey (demolition specialist), and, again, with the Seabees (I'd been assigned TAD to them before), and got sent to where I didn't want to be for a while. I was finally sent to the diving gangs aboard the submarine tenders -- good duty, especially the USS Holland in Rota, Spain but I considered it something of a waste of my hard-acquired skills.
LSTs, the older ones at least, were all but unsinkable. They were built on the cheap during WW-II and intended for just one amphibious landing, but it seemed that no matter how busted up they got, like an unwanted cat, they just kept on a'comin' back. One of the toughest ships the Navy ever put to sea, I think.
With almost no superstructure and in spite of a bottom as flat as a George W. Bush brain scan, they were highly seaworthy. They were also a very rough ride, much to the dismay of new seamen and marines coming aboard. Their ballast pumping systems were excellent and weight could be quickly shifted anywhere -- important when the ship is backing off a beach….. or trying to.....  |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 11:37:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Many thanks for posting the pic of 1171. Brought a tear o' nostalgia to this jaundiced, old eye, it did.
You're welcome, Filthy. Dammit, it did that to me, too.
BTW, people, all that unsightly clutter on the deck of the Aludra: Those are boxes of food, on stacked pallets which are in heavy nylon cargo nets, ready to be shifted over to the ship -- probably a carrier -- where the photographer is standing. The Aludra will pull up, and stay precisely parallel while still steaming along. Then shot lines will be fired across. Light cords will be used to pull across heavier manila lines, then those will be used to pull across the wire ropes (steel cables) used by the Aludra's winches. Within minutes, tons of food will be passing between the ships at several points, with winch operators on each ship keeping a close eye on the signal paddles (or at night, coned flashlights) of fellows on the opposite ship. UNREPS are one of the most interesting -- and hazardous -- operations I've had a privilege to participate in.
And thanks for that link, Filthy. It's the best I've yet seen on the Crown Princess. This part was right in line with your earlier skepticism about a 15 degree list:quote:
Dave Golding, another licensed captain, said a 15-degree list wouldn't have caused so much havoc onboard, and wouldn't have caused water to pour out of swimming pools, as passengers on the Crown Princess reported. He said he thinks the ship listed more like 30 to 35 degrees.
One thing that catches my attention about the cruise ships is that in one fell swoop, an accident could slaughter numbers greater than the whole butcher's bill of the 9/11 attacks. And of course, the dangerous top-heaviness of these so-called ships also make them more vulnerable to terrorists.
Another point: Much of the stabilization system of the Crown Princess depended upon active computer control over stabilizer "wings" and shifting of water in ballast tanks. It seems high-tech methods are employed to try to overcome the problems attending the ship's overall bad design, and that those very techniques may have gone wrong and contributed to the listing.
I am uncomfortable with relying upon actively powered systems in an emergency. That's akin to leaving out stairwells in the design of a high-rise building, relying upon elevators for evacuation instead. A ship should be seaworthy from the keel up. Without computers, electrical power, or even engines running, it should be fairly stable in the water. That depends upon the vessel being shaped like a ship, and having its weight distributed properly. These cruise liners simply fail in this regard.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/24/2006 12:27:40 |
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