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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  05:01:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
From the notes to Chomsky's Understanding Power see note 29 Chapter 5 at http://www.understandingpower.com/chap5.htm :

quote:
Richard E. Welch, Response to Revolution: The United States and the Cuban Revolution, 1959-1961, Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1985. An excerpt (pp. 10-14):
[A] widely held myth holds that Fidel Castro was a communist from the beginning of his career as a Cuban revolutionary. . . . Here is a myth that is not an exaggeration but a lie. Castro at twenty-one was a left-leaning student who disliked authority and had feelings of guilt and suspicion toward his own class, the Cuban bourgeoisie. He was a revolutionary in search of a revolution, but he was not a communist. By temperament a caudillo [military leader], and by the definitions of U.S. political history never a democrat, Castro only became a Marxist sometime between fall 1960 and fall 1961. Castro himself is partially responsible for the myths surrounding his conversion to Marxist ideology. During a long speech on 2 December 1961 he declared himself a Marxist-Leninist and in parts of that rambling oration seemed to imply that he had long been sympathetic to socialist doctrine. These portions were inaccurately translated in early press reports and subsequently taken out of context by his enemies in the United States. . . . Actually the chief theme of this confused and self-exculpatory address was that although he had always been a socialist intuitively, he was initially in thralldom to bourgeois values. Only by hard study and several stages had he come to a full appreciation of the superior wisdom of Marx and Lenin. . . .

Castro's initial program called for representative democracy as well as social reform and made no demands for the nationalization of land and industry. . . . The Cuban Revolution evolved from a variant of democratic reformism to a variant of communism, and its radicalization is best understood when its early years are divided into three separate periods. These periods cannot be given specific dates, but a logical three-part chronological division identifies as phase one, January-October 1959; phase two, November 1959-December 1960; and phase three, 1961 and spring 1962. Historians differ over the labels to be given these three phases. For the historian who sees Castro's adoption of communism as the main theme of the Cuban Revolution, phase one might be labeled "from anticommunism to anti-anticommunism"; phase two, "from anti-anticommunism to pro-communism"; and phase three, "from pro-communism to communist."

See also, William Appleman Williams, The United States, Cuba, and Castro: An Essay on the Dynamics of Revolution and the Dissolution of Empire, New York: Monthly Review, 1962, p. 112 ("Castro moved . . . to attack the Communist challenge to his leadership. He did so very bluntly and angrily on May 8 and 16 [1959], dissociating himself from the Communist Party and its ideas and programs. He subsequently acted in June to block Communist influence in the labor movement"); Wayne S. Smith, The Closest of Enemies: A Personal and Diplomatic Account of U.S.-Cuban Relations Since 1957, New York: Norton, 1987, p. 44 ("C.I.A. Deputy Director C.P. Cabell confirmed during testimony before a Senate subcommittee in November 1959 . . . 'Castro,' he said, 'is not a Communist . . . the Cuban Communists do not consider him a Communist party member or even a pro-Communist'"); Warren Hinckle and William W. Turner, The Fish Is Red: The Story of the Secret War Against Castro, New York: Harper and Row, 1981, p. 33 (the C.I.A.'s Latin America political action officer, Frank Bender, concluded: "Castro is not only not a Communist . . . he is a strong anti-Communist fighter").



I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 08/09/2006 05:04:09
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  09:47:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Anyone who suggests the Castro wasnt born a commie, is a trator! Also you will be subject to rendition, to Cuba!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  10:20:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
He was always Satan Incarnate, he just didn't realize it.

I saw some Cuban American Congresswoman on the TV the other day calling Castro an "Evil Dictator." When people bring out the "E" word, I have to wonder how often they beat their children.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  12:51:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Calling Castro an "Evil Dictator" reduces the power of both of those words. If anyone is an evil dictator, Kim Jung Il is. Castro acted according with the local history and culture, and did what he had to do to stay in power, but he also made concerted efforts to run Cuba for the benefit of the people. To contrast, Kim Jung Il let a million of his own people starve to death in 2002 and has made statements about exactly what small fraction of the North Korean population must be kept alive in order for the current government to stay in power. If we label Castro as "evil", what is Kim?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  12:59:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Even so, we hear about him from the same media that tells us that Chavez is an evil dictator too. Lou Dobbs called him the "Venezuelan Strongman." How much can he bench press, do you reckon?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  13:07:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
If we label Castro as "evil", what is Kim?


An evil idiot.

A very delayed edit: In all seriousness, your point seems rather flawed, marf. You seem to talk about evil as if it were some objective word, that one must meet certain qualifications to be considered evil. Or, that only the most evil person could be considered evil. The contradiction in that sentence was on purpose.

But evil is a subjective word, and I would just as readily describe Castro or Kim as evil as I would a playground bully, because there are varying degrees. Starting at the least evil, we have:

Playground bully
Castro
Kil
Kim

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 08/09/2006 13:49:22
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2006 :  15:14:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

I'm only saying that he did not call himself Communist until the U.S. shunned him, and the only place he had to turn was the Soviet Union. Only then did it become a Communist revolution. Before that, it was just nationalist.

There's a similar story with Ho Chi Min between Vietnam and China.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/09/2006 15:15:08
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  03:18:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Sure. And Castro is evil for resisting the terror campaign of the U.S.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  13:24:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I don't think either Castro or Ho Chi Min were more evil than the worse dictators the US has chosen to support.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  18:33:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
But evil is a subjective word, and I would just as readily describe Castro or Kim as evil as I would a playground bully, because there are varying degrees. Starting at the least evil, we have:

Playground bully
Castro
Kil
Kim

Note to self: Must figure out how to do away with Kim...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  21:54:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Ricky wrote:
quote:
In all seriousness, your point seems rather flawed, marf. You seem to talk about evil as if it were some objective word, that one must meet certain qualifications to be considered evil. Or, that only the most evil person could be considered evil. The contradiction in that sentence was on purpose.

But evil is a subjective word, and I would just as readily describe Castro or Kim as evil as I would a playground bully, because there are varying degrees.


Score one for stating the obvious.

Of course evil is a subjective word. But that doesn't mean it isn't a useful word when used in context, and I think my use of it was pretty clear. If it is not clear to you or anyone else here, I invite you to do some basic research about North Korea in comparison to Cuba under Kim/Castro.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 08/10/2006 21:55:27
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