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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 08/15/2006 : 11:33:49 [Permalink]
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| Homelands are the damn problem, I want a non-communist witch-free atheist homeland. Have we not been persecuted for thousands of years? where the hell is my homeland President Truman? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:09:36 [Permalink]
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For perspective on the "cultural genocide" issue that I raised here, this is a quote from the Wikipedia article that I'd linked earlier:quote:
Article 7 of the "United Nations draft declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples" (26 August 1994) defines "Cultural genocide" (emphasis added)[1]:
Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;
(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 12:30:00 [Permalink]
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marknox said:
quote:
I never did and never would advocate the forced removal of all Jewish people from Israel. People interpreted what I said as meaning that. Force is making people go against their will using military involvement. That is not something I have ever suggested. If you want to complain that my suggestion was confusing and easy to misinterpret I happily agree. But don't tell me what I meant. You're not a mind-reader.
and:
quote:
The world community should relocate the Jewish people to a new homeland.
There is no way to do such a thing that does not involve force. When taken with your opinion that the state of Israel should be dissolved, the message you are communicating is pretty clear.
Unless, of course, you are using some obscure definition of the words "dissolve" and "relocate" that means something different than the common definition of those words.
You were advocating the forced removal of Jews from Israel and the dissolution of their state.
Just admit it, retract it, and move on.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:29:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
You were advocating the forced removal of Jews from Israel and the dissolution of their state.
Look! We have a mind-reader!
Do you think if you just repeat yourself that it makes you more right?
This is fucking rich considering that I've numerously retracted things I've said on this forum as well as changed my stance on issues. But I have yet to see you ever admit you were wrong even when people have cornered you. I am not going to "admit it and retract" that I advocated the forced removal of Jews from Israel. I have already admitted to using piss-poor wording (which frequently happens - sort of like grammar and spelling errors) and I've already rephrased and clarified what I meant. You want me to say that I did advocated forced removal, but then changed my mind. That is not the case and I'm not going to lie to appease you.
Thank you for causing me to repeat myself once again. If you have something new to say, say it. If not, shut up. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/15/2006 13:30:20 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 13:47:10 [Permalink]
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Mooner wrote: quote:
No, I am reading exactly what I DON'T want to read.
So nothing I wrote after that one post means anything. The fact that I have repeatedly explictely said that I do not advocate any military removal of the Jewish people from Israel, but rather, advocate a movement - similar to the Zionist movement that created modern Israel in the first place - and that the world community would have to include the majority of the Jewish people themselves, none of that means anything. It's like I wrote those two sentences that people keep throwing out in bold, and it doesn't seem to matter or make one fucking bit of difference that I've already admitted, repeatedly, were horrible, I'll emphasize - WRONGLY - worded to say something that I did not mean that way. I fucked up in how I said that. I wanted to throw the idea of moving the Jewish homeland (an idea I originally got from one of my Jewish friends!) into the conversation to discuss, but the way I said it came out all wrong and now no one seems to believe me when I say I never meant to advocate any fucking forced at gunpoint, marching into planes removal of the Jewish people. For fuck's sake, within a few posts of my initial statements I told Kil that I thought he was right that a new homeland is totally unrealistic and re-positioned myself in the diplomatic camp! And yet you keep saying I'm advocating cultural genocide, and beating a dead horse. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/15/2006 13:49:47 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 14:19:23 [Permalink]
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In response to the wikipedia article on "Cultural Genocide":
Aside from how it may be applied to conflicts in the middle east, I do not like how vaguely this term is defined, nor do I like the word "genocide" being associated with cultural changes. And I'm not the only one. From the article: quote:
Supporters of the People's Republic of China argue that while wishing to stop secessionist activity in Tibet it does not actively desire to see Tibetan culture eradicated. They also claim that it is improper to use such a highly charged word as genocide to describe any cultural change, especially since Chinese policies in Tibet have allegedly been far less assimilationist than the policies of many nations which are making the criticism.
As I said before, the Lost Generation in Australia - where aboriginal children were forcibly taken from their parents in order to be raised Western and Christian - is something extreme and contrived enough that the label "cultural genocide" seems appropriate. Similar things were done to Native Americans in the Americas. But it is easy to defend a term while citing extreme examples. In this definition of "Cultural Genocide" quoted by Mooner, there is more gray area than extremes. For example: "Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures" - do we not do that to certain groups of Mormons in Utah with legislation that prevents polygamy? How about when we arrest radical prayer-healers for child abuse for not taking their kids to the doctor? I recently read about a group of Orthodox Jews in NYC where the rabbi uses his mouth for circumcism, which has resulted in a couple of babies getting ill and dying from a disease contracted from the rabbi - would arresting that rabbi be cultural genocide? And that bit about "other measures" sure as heck opens things up. Many people argue that US companies are committing cultural imperialism through world trade and corporate control. Maybe we can up that to "cultural genocide" too.
The reason this term bothers me so much is because it seems that most kinds of cultural genocide that would fit this definition are relatively mild compared to the Lost Generation. And they are all mild compared to actual genocide. When we throw around words like that, the words lose their power.
To me, cultural genocide of the Jewish people would involve making laws against the establishment of any Jewish institutions, outlawing public expressions of the Jewish faith or culture, and dispersing the Jewish inhabitants of Israel to a variety of places. This has happened in many places all over the world which is partially what motivated the flight back to Israel and the Zionist Movement. I don't blame the Jewish people for wanting a homeland where they can develop and live their culture and defend their unity and cultural identity. It just seems strange to me that today, where Jewish people can finally live in peace in the Western world and have cultivated many strong communities and institutions in the Western world, that so many would choose to live in the part of the world where they are most hated and most likely to be exterminated.
My greatest fear regarding the middle east is the Israel will stop being useful to the interests of Western nations, and then will actually have to fend for itself before it is strong enough. Israel could have lost in the early 70's, and as a nation they still aren't nearly strong enough to totally defend themselves without their allies. If the West abandons them - and they will as soon as it is politically advantageous to those respective nations to do so - Israel really could be tragically dismantled, and without an alternative homeland for survivors to flee too. In short, I think the idea of a Jewish homeland is good because they are a group that has been percecuted throughout their history. But if the point of a Jewish homeland is to preserve the Jewish culture, isn't it stupid for it to be in the part of the world most hostile to them? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 17:02:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have already admitted to using piss-poor wording (which frequently happens - sort of like grammar and spelling errors) and I've already rephrased and clarified what I meant.
haha! uh huh. yeah.
If everyone else reading your words didn't get the same thing I did from them, then I'd be inclined to let you off the hook. But everyone who has read your post, and posted about it, got the same thing I did.
Your initial foray in this thread was to advocate the removal of jews from Israel and the dissoluition of their state.
And from what I can tell, still, your only objection to such a course of action is the obvious impossibility of implementing it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 17:19:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Mooner wrote: quote:
No, I am reading exactly what I DON'T want to read.
So nothing I wrote after that one post means anything. The fact that I have repeatedly explictely said that I do not advocate any military removal of the Jewish people from Israel, but rather, advocate a movement - similar to the Zionist movement that created modern Israel in the first place - and that the world community would have to include the majority of the Jewish people themselves, none of that means anything. It's like I wrote those two sentences that people keep throwing out in bold, and it doesn't seem to matter or make one fucking bit of difference that I've already admitted, repeatedly, were horrible, I'll emphasize - WRONGLY - worded to say something that I did not mean that way. I fucked up in how I said that. I wanted to throw the idea of moving the Jewish homeland (an idea I originally got from one of my Jewish friends!) into the conversation to discuss, but the way I said it came out all wrong and now no one seems to believe me when I say I never meant to advocate any fucking forced at gunpoint, marching into planes removal of the Jewish people. For fuck's sake, within a few posts of my initial statements I told Kil that I thought he was right that a new homeland is totally unrealistic and re-positioned myself in the diplomatic camp! And yet you keep saying I'm advocating cultural genocide, and beating a dead horse.
What was most fucking provative, next to the "relocation" proposal itself, was the fact that until now you have repeatedly denied that you called for the relocation of Israel in the first place. That you had originally repeated words to that effect three times in different phraseology seems to indicate you were not just making a typographical error, or mistating an argument, but believed in the idea at the time. Your repeated denials later were equally troubling. No, were are not mind-readers! We can't tell that you've abandoned a horrible idea until you tell us so!
But I am delighted that you have abandoned advocating the cultural genocide of the Isaelis. Do understand, however, that in my opinion, it's nearly impossible to "overreact" in opposition to proposals for genocide, cultural or otherwise.
Genocide was almost certainly the greatest evil of the Twentieth Century. When even a person who shares many of my own political beliefs can casually pop off with a plan to dismantle Israel, I worry that the lessons of the Holocaust have not generally been learned at all. I have been, despite your perception of my treating you like an idiot, careful to keep my discussion to the issues, and I never name-called. But I would not blame anyone for going utterly ballistic over your (former) proposal. There are no greater issues than genocide, in any of its forms.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/15/2006 17:20:57 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 18:57:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Homelands are the damn problem, I want a non-communist witch-free atheist homeland. Have we not been persecuted for thousands of years? where the hell is my homeland President Truman?
Hey!
Wassamata with witches?
Perhaps the witches can have a homeland.....
I'm thinking Wales or California. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 18:59:30 [Permalink]
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| You could take back Salem. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 19:38:10 [Permalink]
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Too many quotes, too little time......
To Valient. I know Israel has nukes, but I really doubt that they would be the first to use them. Iran does not have nukes. Iran cannot have nukes.
marfknox: I grow tired of this. What you despise, I only despise because it was not done on a grander scale. I don't think many people are going to agree with my medivel veiw of what needs to be done in the middle east.
However, you and a lot of people try to apply rational thinking in places that it does not work. Your "modern values" are not my modern values, and certainly not Israels. Sure, rationally, Israel should not leave her borders, the Arabs should not leave theirs, and the UN should live up to it's end of the deal. That is a pipe-dream. Too many of them want Israel gone, and the US with them Not just gone... GONE, dead and ground under the heel of Allah. Every stop to critically think abut how to best handle the situation is wasted unless it is on how best to anhilate the threat. That is waht they are doing. They are not worried about civilian casualties, they are not worried about their own dead. This is not a rational enemy that can be met on rational terms.
Israel should have ignored the UN and kept going into Hexbolah was incapable of anything. It should do the same in Gaza. THe west needs to do it with Iran and Syria.
I am too tired to ramble on any more.
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2006 : 19:56:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
In response to the wikipedia article on "Cultural Genocide":
Aside from how it may be applied to conflicts in the middle east, I do not like how vaguely this term is defined, nor do I like the word "genocide" being associated with cultural changes. And I'm not the only one. From the article: quote:
Supporters of the People's Republic of China argue that while wishing to stop secessionist activity in Tibet it does not actively desire to see Tibetan culture eradicated. They also claim that it is improper to use such a highly charged word as genocide to describe any cultural change, especially since Chinese policies in Tibet have allegedly been far less assimilationist than the policies of many nations which are making the criticism.
Oh, great! I can barely believe you wrote this. You use China's own denials of the effect and intent of their Tibet policy, as an argument to diminish my "cultural genocide" criticism? China on Tibet: There's an objective view! One might just as well quote Custer on Native American cultural traditions. Or, for that matter, Hitler on the Jews.
Is this tack an indication of how deeply felt is your retraction of your Israel relocation suggestion? Having come clean and both admitted, and withdrawn your modest proposal, why are you now struggling to diminish the significance of what you'd written? I hope you are not thinking to get the idea going again, but this time perhaps as a harmless thought-experiment, and dressed up prettily in non-genocidal clothing. Again, I cannot read your mind, only your written words. So please feel free to clarify this.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 10:49:15 [Permalink]
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| On a side note, does any know what happened to those kidnapped soldiers? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 11:39:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
On a side note, does any know what happened to those kidnapped soldiers?
Only Allah, and Hezbollah.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 13:12:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Hey Beskeptigal, I don't know if you read this but thanks for directing me to it:
WATCHING LEBANON
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Washington's interests in Israel's war.
Anyhow, you are wrong that I don't understand what you are saying. It's just that you are all over the place. And you have said nothing that would lead me away from thinking that in the end, a negotiated peace must take place, no matter what Israel and the Palestinians do, or how long it takes them to make peace possible…
It's a simple enough statement.
You are welcome and yes, I read it after the Democracy Now interview.
I may appear all over the place but I'm not. Things go from topic to topic in a running discussion and cohesiveness suffers.
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