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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2006 : 21:14:47
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According to this AP article at CNN, Secretary of the Air Force Michael Wynne, a Bush appointee, wants to test "nonlethal" weapons on mobs of unruly Americans to make sure they are safe to use in war. In his words, "If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation..."
With that logic, I hope Wynne doesn't plan on developing any new nuclear weapons soon!
The reasoning (if that word can be used in this context) behind this is:quote:
The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.
This "America-first" approach should be great for domestic public relations, too!
Of the weapons to be tested, the article describes them as "high-power microwave devices," and goes on to say:quote:
Nonlethal weapons generally can weaken people if they are hit with the beam. Some of the weapons can emit short, intense energy pulses that also can be effective in disabling some electronic devices.
No need for a corps of Brown-shirts to break up anti-war or pro-democracy demonstrations. Just "test" the microwave crowd-zapper!
This administration is becoming seriously Fascistic.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/12/2006 21:17:13
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:13:41 [Permalink]
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Air Force Secretary Wynne's idea is to use these microwave devices "in crowd-control situations." The situation is not defined, so it could be anything from a riot to a calm group of people standing on a corner peacefully holding signs.
Being in the air force and all, maybe Wynne would like to bring back the Stuka dive-bomber to carry the crowd melting ray-gun. Any real president would immediately fire the son of a bitch for making such a suggestion.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:43:54 [Permalink]
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Of course, there is a little law, the Posse Comitatus Act, passed by Congress in 1878. This is a law with iconic significance to old-style conservatives, which generally prohibits the US Armed Forces from being called in to handle all but the most dangerous kinds of civil disturbances.
Unless the Administration chose to ignore that Act as it has so many other laws, the Act might make it legally difficult for Wynne to use the Air Force to break up his fellow citizens' demonstrations, or even minor riots.
But maybe the idea would be to hand over these high-power microwave crowd-zappers to the county mounties for testing? The microwave beams could be set up so that they worked to keep riot-prone "types" in the proper part of town. Or to break up strikes. Or to paralyze illegals crossing the Rio Grande. Such possibilities! Bet folks here have some even better ideas.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:46:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
the article describes them as "high-power microwave devices,"
The one of these that I have heard about allegedly makes your skin feel like it is burning. It is supposed to be extremely painfull, but not actually harmfull.
The idea of "testing" this shit on crowds seems pretty reckless though. The testing should be done in controlled situations and there should be good reason to believe the tech has no harmful effects before they decide to roll it out onto LA or something.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 01:20:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
the article describes them as "high-power microwave devices,"
The one of these that I have heard about allegedly makes your skin feel like it is burning. It is supposed to be extremely painfull, but not actually harmfull.
The idea of "testing" this shit on crowds seems pretty reckless though. The testing should be done in controlled situations and there should be good reason to believe the tech has no harmful effects before they decide to roll it out onto LA or something.
Agreed. In fact, I have no general objection (though a few concerns) about this kind of thing being used in warfare. Imagine a busload of tourists held captive by terrorists. The whole area might be zapped to disable everyone in the vicinity. Then troops could move in and sort them out. In war, this kind of weapon might save lives. Any testing should be done carefully, and with full informed consent by volunteers.
But the suggestion of "testing" such weapons on his fellow citizens puts Wynne beyond the pale of democratic governance, in my opinion. It puts him arm in arm with the tyrants of history. Used domestically, this would swiftly become a dictator's weapon, useful only for controlling rebellious citizens. As one of those rebels, I naturally object.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/13/2006 01:22:31 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 03:49:09 [Permalink]
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Yeah, and think about all the people in the crowd who may have a pacemaker or implanted defib.
As a weapon of war it seems much more reasonable though, or maybe prison crowd control. A non-leathal way to disable combatants seems like it would be an invaluable tool for urban combat, where civilian casualties (or inmate casualties in a prison) are likely to occur.
I don't object to the technology, just to the idea of testing it out on crowds.
The one that makes you feel like you are burning.... if you set that onto a crowd of people, why would you think the result would be different than if you had actually set them on fire? Chaos, panic, and trampling deaths follow shortly. Seems like a no brainer.
Now, if you simply set this field up in an area that you didn't want people to enter, and they get zapped at the edge as they try to move into the area, then you have something that could be a legit use.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 13:25:27 [Permalink]
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I'm pretty sure both you, Dude, and Secretary Wynne are talking about the Active Denial System (ADS), a microwave system working at 95 GHz. (Home microwaves operate at about 2.4 GHz.)
To point out the dangers of "testing" the ADS on a civilian US "mob," see this quote from Wiki:quote:
Documents requested by Edward Hammond, director of the U.S. Sunshine Project, and released in July 2005 list specifics of testing that occurred in 2003 and 2004 at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. There were three sequential experiments described in the documents, using volunteers to measure pain levels. According to the experiments, the weapon causes pain within two to three seconds and becomes intolerable within five seconds. It is believed that even in uncontrolled conditions, the targets' reflexes will cause them to rapidly move away from the beam.
The experiments took several precautions for the safety of the volunteers. In all experiments, the volunteers were not allowed to wear glasses or contact lenses, due to concerns about possible eye damage. Additionally, after the first experiment, volunteers were checked for metal objects, such as keys and coins, as well as certain zippers, buttons, and seams, in order to avoid "hot spots" that could be created by these objects on the skin of the participants.
In a test conducted before the three experiments described, one of the participants suffered a burn due to the weapon being set to the wrong power level.
And after such testing, the Secretary of the Air Force wants to test this on random gatherings of his fellow citizens.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/13/2006 13:37:16 |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 16:11:27 [Permalink]
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YO: Am I having a bad dream, or is this another Bushit appointee showing his fascist colors? This is one of the reasons why the Bushits are using the GOP talking point term, Islamo-Fascist so much. People like Winn who want to domestically test this weapon on unruly citizens are fucking idiots. (Please excuse my Francaise usage here.) The neocons who have their noses where the moon don't shine on Bush have to freight down their rhetoric as such to make it seem to their ditto heads THEY aren't today's fascists, when it's abundantly clear that these dildos are coming closer to such a philosophy than any other political group on earth.
As far as testing the weapon, I tend to agree with Halfmooner. Since it doesn't kill, but obviously gets the target's attention pretty damned quick, I'm inclined that it should be something to consider, for sure. But used during legitimately mandated wars, not ones created through lies to instill fear.
However, I suggest we test it on a small group of U-S politicians who've been dishonored through their actions of corruption and lack of statemanship while in office. Hmmmm, let's see. Do Tom DeLay have a familiar ring to it?
But you see, even though I find Mr. DeLay to be someone to loathe, I am not a fascist; therefore I would never want his sorry ass to be tortured in such a way just simply because he is a human being. It would be nice if George W. Bush and Osama bin Laden could get their brains around that one.
OY! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
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| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 09/13/2006 16:18:53 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 17:11:01 [Permalink]
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I personally find several things disturbing about this news:
1. That anyone in such a high office in a nominally democratic country would seriously make such a proposal.
2. That after making the proposal, he was not instantly fired by the President.
3. That this is not being covered in the major media as the biggest news item of the day.
4. That even here, this proposal gets the attention of only a fraction of the regular posters.
This is not a conspiracy theory, this is the real thing. Are we getting so numbed to abuses these last few years that we are willing to just shrug and move on when the head of the Air Force actually wants to experiment by zapping mobs of unruly fellow citizens with a microwave pain-gun?
Before Bush and 9/11, none of the things listed above would have happened, I suspect. I shudder when I think of how this illustrates how much we've changed since 9/11.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 05:38:24 [Permalink]
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RE Direct Energy Weapons: Such old news, re-hashed. Considered by Clinton after WTO riots, or was it after his jack-booted attack at Waco?
RE Testing on civilian populations: Even older news considering the chemical, biological, and nuclear experimentation already done since the 40's.
I know, I know... irrelevent. They are no longer presidents, so what they did dosen't matter. Because they are no longer presidents, they get to be free and clear of their bullshit. It's all Bush's fault. He is not just another bullshit politician, he is evil incarnate.
The obssesive-compullsive blaming on Bush for following tradition, instead of the tradition itslef is rediculous. Focus on the small issue, ignore the large.
Despise the player. That is ok. But hate the game with every fiber of your being, or you are part of the game.
Peace
Joe
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 09:04:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
RE Direct Energy Weapons: Such old news, re-hashed. Considered by Clinton after WTO riots, or was it after his jack-booted attack at Waco?
RE Testing on civilian populations: Even older news considering the chemical, biological, and nuclear experimentation already done since the 40's.
I know, I know... irrelevent. They are no longer presidents, so what they did dosen't matter. Because they are no longer presidents, they get to be free and clear of their bullshit. It's all Bush's fault. He is not just another bullshit politician, he is evil incarnate.
The obssesive-compullsive blaming on Bush for following tradition, instead of the tradition itslef is rediculous. Focus on the small issue, ignore the large.
Despise the player. That is ok. But hate the game with every fiber of your being, or you are part of the game.
Peace
Joe
Joe,
You are ignoring the informed concent reforms of the 60's which brought to a halt testing on people without their informed concent.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 09:16:07 [Permalink]
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| What makes you think we agree with any of the previous testing? Its not like those bastards are still alive for us to hate on is it? Personally Id have strung Truman up by his neck if I saw him in a dark alley. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 14:00:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
What makes you think we agree with any of the previous testing? Its not like those bastards are still alive for us to hate on is it? Personally Id have strung Truman up by his neck if I saw him in a dark alley.
I don't think anyone agrees with the previous testing, at least I hope not. However, it is ludcrous to just try to say, "Oh there goes that fascist Bush again being evil." It is not just Bush, it is the system and too many people in it.
Everytime someone yells it's Bush's fault, another dirty little commie fascist evil bastard gets a pass.......
That is about all I see. I guess thats Bush's fault.  |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 14:27:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
RE Direct Energy Weapons: Such old news, re-hashed. Considered by Clinton after WTO riots, or was it after his jack-booted attack at Waco?
RE Testing on civilian populations: Even older news considering the chemical, biological, and nuclear experimentation already done since the 40's.
I know, I know... irrelevent. They are no longer presidents, so what they did dosen't matter. Because they are no longer presidents, they get to be free and clear of their bullshit. It's all Bush's fault. He is not just another bullshit politician, he is evil incarnate.
The obssesive-compullsive blaming on Bush for following tradition, instead of the tradition itslef is rediculous. Focus on the small issue, ignore the large.
Despise the player. That is ok. But hate the game with every fiber of your being, or you are part of the game.
Peace
Joe
Joe,
You are ignoring the informed concent reforms of the 60's which brought to a halt testing on people without their informed concent.
No, not ignoring it, don't trust it.
But that is a matter for lawyers and loopholes. Are people truely informed of everything when they give consent?
I can't really find any credible, blatant abuses since then, but maybe I am missing something......
And on another issue while looking........ The military used (volunteer) Seven-day Adventists(sp?) with full consent up through the 70's to test biological agents for defense in case of bilological attack. They took that research and used it to make offensive weapons. Though it was interesting. They consented to help in developing defensive capabilities, not offensive ones....
Peace
Joe |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 16:46:10 [Permalink]
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It sure came across as we would be the guinea pigs so the US wouldn't further tarnish its outstanding human rights record  by trying novel mysterious techniques on foreigners. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 19:36:29 [Permalink]
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There is still shamefully little coverage of this news in major American media, though China's "People's Daily" and a few other foreign outlets have been swift to pass along the embarrassing story.
I did find just one single, shining exception: An editorial in the Huntsville, (Alabama) Times, which called for Secretary Wynne's resignation in the event he does not retract his outrageous statements. In general, though, our "free" press seems to see nothing strange or dangerous about Wynne's remarks.
I personally find that fact itself both strange and dangerous.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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