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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2002 : 03:49:50 [Permalink]
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I must agree with Slater and Tokyodreamer. If we were to show little or no interest in people that we don't agree with, it would only reinforce the already strong feeling among so many that scientists, skeptics and Free thinkers are haughty, elitist and arrogant. This would only add to the distrust and suspicion, and widen the gulf that already separates so many people of all ideologies throughout the world.
I feel that the world is a marketplace of ideas, and we can learn from even the must ludicrous of beliefs. We can at least learn about the needs of another, and this can surely limit misunderstandings in the future.
quote:
I, myself, have been a skeptic for as long as I can remember. I find it exceedingly boring to tilt against the anti-scientific windmills of the poor adult souls who somehow missed the scientific boat. I believe in promoting a scientific attitude to the nth degree, fully realizing that people exist (and will always exist) who are congenitally opposed to science. I am more interested in getting science across to those whose minds are open to it.
I never actually considered myself to be a skeptic, or a free thinker, and certainly not a scientist, but I've been interested in these things for as long as I can remember. These are the people that I've looked up to, and aspired to be like. They were my childhood heroes. Yet, I still find those people that "missed the scientific boat" to be very interesting, and counted among my best friends. We interact on a regular basis. We play ball. We discuss problems at work, and at home. We play games with each other, and with the children. We cook out on the weekends. And, you know what? Some of those friends we interact with are self described 'born-again Christians.' They even know about our lifestyle, and our opinions of the Bible and morality. We've had some GREAT conversations. I may not change their minds, but I will give them something to think about, and bring them one step closer to understand what being open-minded really means.
Who knows, because of our conversations, perhaps they're children will learn that one fact that helps them escape the dark closet of indoctrination?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2002 : 13:19:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
I never did get a chance to thank him. The only way I can show my gratitude is to pass his challenge along. Prehaps someone on the sidelines, some lurker at this site, will say "Those Skeptics are insufferable. I'll PROVE that they are wrong." It would be wonderful if that happened.
The purpose of this site is to promote skepticism.
I too am not comfortable with the term "Evangelical Skepticism."
I can tell you from experience that sometimes presenting ideas to a person who has never considered them, works. I have the thank you letters to prove it. I received one just this week regarding my old miracle thaw report.
We are not telling people what to think. What we are advocating is a way to think. A method for evaluating extraordinary claims.
While there are certainly people who are unreachable, I think that most people just haven't been taught how to "kick the tires" when they are presented with claims that are appealing. Things like magic diets, a manual on how to achieve an afterlife, "natural" cancer cures and such, if they actually worked, would make us happy.
It's easy to be credulous. It takes a bit of work to be a skeptic. But in the long run, it can save money and lives. So I have no problem offering the tools for skepticism to anyone who will listen. If that is evangelical skepticism, then I'm guilty. I prefer to think of myself as sort of a consumer advocate...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2002 : 19:42:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I too am not comfortable with the term "Evangelical Skepticism."
I am quite fond of this term, because it is inflammatory in nature: it implies a hypocrisy that none of us want to admit we might have.
I was talking to my friend about this thread (he is the "quasi-Catholic" I have mentioned in earlier posts), how the question was posed, some answers we came up with. I then told him, "we decided that we may be hypocritical, but we're right!" I got the greatest look of shock from him before I told him that I was kidding. quote:
We are not telling people what to think. What we are advocating is a way to think. A method for evaluating extraordinary claims.
This is almost exactly what I told him after I got the look of surprise.
-me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2002 : 11:50:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's easy to be credulous. It takes a bit of work to be a skeptic. But in the long run, it can save money and lives. So I have no problem offering the tools for skepticism to anyone who will listen. If that is evangelical skepticism, then I'm guilty. I prefer to think of myself as sort of a consumer advocate...
Agreed on this and most other postings, too, including the expectations on whom we can reach and whom not.
The practical difficulty is not usually for me in the presentation of evidence but in the idea that I truly am not trying to dictate conclusions but processes instead.
Frankly, I hadn't intended to create a label in naming this thread, but I kind of like the term Evangelical Skepticism. It does not convey the idea of forcing conclusions on others but instead describes actively exposing them to evidence and methodology.
So, evolutionarily preferable or not, I suppose I'm an ES for better or worse.
[edited for spelling]
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 01/30/2002 11:51:39 |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2002 : 00:17:03 [Permalink]
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You know, I've become aware that some online debates have made me do research and thereby helped me discover some absolutely fabulous nuggets of information. (Zeno's paradoxes, fer instance, connect solidly with Georg Cantor's work on infinite sets in the 19th century and with special relativity in the early 20th! Holy cow!) So as a guy with a spotty sort of education, I'm finding that diving into such debates has very great personal benefits. (Of course I end up having to eat my words now and then when research shows I was WRONG, but that, too, is a good thing. Better to eat some crow than persist in ignorance!)
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 02/04/2002 00:18:17 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2002 : 20:37:45 [Permalink]
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I like the term 'Evangelical Skepticism'. Not all evangelicism (aaaaaah! spelling!) means 'Waking Xev up on Saturday morning when she has a nasty hangover and waving Bibles'...
It can be as simple as sticking to your guns.
But, if I must be an evangelical skeptic in a bad way, do I get to wear my creationist-slaying outfit? http://www.strangersinparadise.com/images/issues/volume03issue16b.jpg
What I have wondered is, is debunking a form of bullying?
For instance, read http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0090/0090_01.asp, specifically thier assertion about the effectivenes of condoms and the HIV virus. They claim that the small size of the virus renders condoms an ineffective defense.
Well, that set off my Skeptic Alarm(tm). So I am doing a little research. (No dice, so far)
The point of this rambling is:
I enjoy debunking! But, somtimes I feel that I am picking on somone logically weaker than I am. And, I wonder if I envy the certainty Jack Chick, Ken Hovind, et alia, have?
Somtimes I do envy the utter mindlessness of the phrase 'God said it, I believe it, that settles it!'!!
I wonder if the pleasure I take in debunking is a kind of 'sour grapes'?
Has/does anyone else feel the same way?
(Sorry if I've rambled)
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2002 : 00:56:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
But, if I must be an evangelical skeptic in a bad way, do I get to wear my creationist-slaying outfit? http://www.strangersinparadise.com/images/issues/volume03issue16b.jpg
I'm a big fan of that! If only more women wore the "creationist-slaying outfit!" 
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I enjoy debunking! But, somtimes I feel that I am picking on somone logically weaker than I am. And, I wonder if I envy the certainty Jack Chick, Ken Hovind, et alia, have?
I know what you mean. Sometimes I can see the disappointment in somebody's eyes when I rail against a ridiculous commercial (they started to fall for the advertising), and I almost feel bad. Also, I really wish I could have the absolute certainty these fanatics seem to have. Certainty must be nice. quote:
I wonder if the pleasure I take in debunking is a kind of 'sour grapes'?
Could be, but I doubt it (I am kinda skeptical in general, though). I think it is more a sense of imperative: the more people who think rationally, the better off we will be. Debunking is merely a way to introduce a dose of rationality where it may not have been before. quote:
(Sorry if I've rambled)
Don't be.
-me. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2002 : 10:17:37 [Permalink]
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I know what you mean. Sometimes I can see the disappointment in somebody's eyes when I rail … and I almost feel bad.
So I'd taken my old cat to the Vet, his main problem was extreme old age (21). But the usual Vet is on vacation and subbing for her is a young Jamaican woman with a Bostonian accent. After giving poor Flynn the once over she says that she'd like to try eastern medicine on him. I think 'something new from the New England School of Veterinary Medicine,' but she means the "mystic east' (which is sooo mystic that it's actually west of here).
She suggests acupuncture, but seeing the look on my face, immediately asks what's wrong.
I ask if she knows just how acupuncture works, and she assures me that she does. So I ask if she can correct any misunderstandings I have about it. As I understand it the bodies natural energy flows along meridian lines to the appropriate chockras. Some time this energy gets blocked and the acupuncture needles can redirect the flow.
She assures me that this is a pretty accurate description.
I ask her if she dissected any cats while in vet school and am told that she operates on cats regularly.
So I asked her if she ever found a chockra inside of one of them? Or a meridian? And what type of energy was she talking about, heat, electricity,--potential or kinetic?
Ignoring my first questions she answers "spiritual energy." I ask her how she measures spiritual energy, to which she says 'you don't.' "So how do you know there is any?"
She put her hand on my arm and says that she was once a skeptic herself but she tried acupuncture and it worked wonders for her. I then asked if cats understood the concept of placebos?
I have a new vet now.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2002 : 12:18:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
I know what you mean. Sometimes I can see the disappointment in somebody's eyes when I rail against a ridiculous commercial (they started to fall for the advertising), and I almost feel bad. Also, I really wish I could have the absolute certainty these fanatics seem to have. Certainty must be nice.
Exactly! I do envy them thier certainty sometimes...and I wonder if I am just jealous.
But what makes debunking fun?
(And I'd wear my Creationist-Slaying outfit if some company would get around to actually making one!)
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer
Edited by - Xev on 02/05/2002 21:03:33 |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2002 : 22:32:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
The purpose of this site is to promote skepticism.
I too am not comfortable with the term "Evangelical Skepticism."
I can tell you from experience that sometimes presenting ideas to a person who has never considered them, works. I have the thank you letters to prove it. I received one just this week regarding my old miracle thaw report.
We are not telling people what to think. What we are advocating is a way to think. A method for evaluating extraordinary claims.
While there are certainly people who are unreachable, I think that most people just haven't been taught how to "kick the tires" when they are presented with claims that are appealing. Things like magic diets, a manual on how to achieve an afterlife, "natural" cancer cures and such, if they actually worked, would make us happy.
It's easy to be credulous. It takes a bit of work to be a skeptic. But in the long run, it can save money and lives. So I have no problem offering the tools for skepticism to anyone who will listen. If that is evangelical skepticism, then I'm guilty. I prefer to think of myself as sort of a consumer advocate...
Well the site has done its job with me. I have found this site fascinating with the many different ideas and interpretations of life and the natural world.
I wasn't REALLY sure what a skeptic was until I stumbled upon this place whilst on nightshift. I had always been interested in the natural world, evolution and whatnot, and all the material I read was interesting, informative and sometimes hilarious.
Whilst I thought I had a fair idea of science, religion etc., but after scooting through here I realised that I know absolutely nothing compared to some of the people that post here. This however, has made me more determined to read and research more and has even inspired me to write an essay – which is going very slowly as we speak.
I was never religious so I didn't have to rethink my outlook on life, however this place has made me open my eyes just that little bit wider and look at things with a little more detail.
So Kil, the website has got to one person. I consider myself to be a skeptic now…..albeit a skeptic in training who has quite a bit to learn.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 12:48:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
So Kil, the website has got to one person. I consider myself to be a skeptic now…..albeit a skeptic in training who has quite a bit to learn.
gezzam, I think all of us consider ourselves to fall into this category. There's so much out there to learn no one person can learn it all.
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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