|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2002 : 22:33:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
If our brain size came from a sexual attraction scheme, since most us conceal our brains within our skulls, why isn't a large head or a wide forehead, considered more beautiful than it seems to be treated, today?
Let me answer that question with a question. If a woman had a "pin head" or the intelligence of a Chimp (our nearest relative and the primate closest to us in intelligence) would you want her to have your children?
quote:
Assuming this scheme is still at work. Is this true of dolphins as well?
According to Dr Louis M. Herman at the University of Hawaii --yes.
Except for a couple of guys who are with the O.N.I., Louie is the top dolphin man there is.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 01/16/2002 22:34:22 |
 |
|
|
NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 02:27:54 [Permalink]
|
Well, let me respond in kind. Is it after midnight, and just how many damn drinks did me have, anyway? Oh geez! Not another 'coyote morning!'
So the answer is, no?!? Honestly, being male, when an attractive lady is spoted, though will grant me ought, child rearing isn't my primary contemplation. As you point out with a peacock's tail feathers, or a baboon's colorful tail, these are visual cues. Evolution seems to move at a relatively slow pace, seemed a reasonable question... 
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
|
|
|
Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 04:37:30 [Permalink]
|
NubiWan--a pint of water and two aspirin BEFORE hitting the sack will help a lot with that hangover headache.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 05:00:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
NubiWan--a pint of water and two aspirin BEFORE hitting the sack will help a lot with that hangover headache.
How come no one ever believes me when I tell them this?
quote:
But your question is did they intentionally make it up.
Undoubtedly yes.
I would venture to guess that the first god was made up by a pseudo-alpha while he was in a state of panic. The first god would have been the creation of an unsuccessful pseudo-alpha and not a successful one.
The first Devil was invented by a successful pseudo-alpha, long before the first god.
Interesting to posit that the bad guy part of religion came before the good guy part, but seems to make sense on the face of it.
Still, the conclusion seems at first inescapable that religion is based not on truth or lack of knowledge but on deception (which we agree is obvious today but which surprises me that it began that way).
There's a rather mediocre novel that came out about 8 years or so ago called "Neanderthal." The premise is that anthropologists find two competing clans of unevolved Neanderthals still existing in remote somewhereland. There is the usual adventure and spiritual nonsense espoused, but the final conclusion reached in the search for why Neanderthals lost to Homo Erectus (or whichever version of us they were competing with) is that the H.E.'s developed the capacity to lie whereas the Neanderthals could not understand it. Thus, even though the N.'s were stronger, faster, bigger (in this book at least) and possessed of some nifty psychic skills (in this book at least) they could not hope to win what became a war of deception and spying.
----
Unsupported speculation that has been brewing for some time before this:
In pondering the question of what 'separates' humans from the other animals (define 'separates' however you wish), or more accurately what has allowed such success in comparison to other animals, I think of two characteristics, both unintended consequences of the larger brain.
First, the ability or even propensity to deceive.
Second, the desire to improve one's lot. By this I mean not just the desire to get more meat to eat and a warmer cave, but a desire to eat better meat prepared in someplace warmer than a cave.
Poorly said, but I'm not an anthro. Am I exposing my status as novice in this area too much?
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 05:05:08 [Permalink]
|
Well, as far as what "separates" us from the other animals goes, Mark Twain put it pretty succinctly:
"Man is the only animal who blushes. Or needs to."
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 06:06:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Poorly said, but I'm not an anthro. Am I exposing my status as novice in this area too much?
Actually, I think that was well said, but I would like to take it one step further to suggest that it's still all about sex. The bigger better crib and hotter ride still scores the more sought after 'friends'. (I'm trying to be nice, and non-sexist, but anything to do with evolution could care less about equality--At least, in this case)
Anyway, if you don't have the crib and the ride, you can always lie about it.
I'm not always this cynical, but sometimes I just gotta be me....
I had a student ask me, "Could the savior you believe in save Osama bin Laden?" Of course, we know the blood of Jesus Christ can save him, and then he must be executed.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell
|
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 08:15:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Actually, I think that was well said, but I would like to take it one step further to suggest that it's still all about sex. The bigger better crib and hotter ride still scores the more sought after 'friends'. (I'm trying to be nice, and non-sexist, but anything to do with evolution could care less about equality--At least, in this case)
Anyway, if you don't have the crib and the ride, you can always lie about it.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs too finely, but while I agree with you that it's about sex, this just helps compete within the species. To compete against other species, the sex drive itself is not sufficient, no?
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 11:42:38 [Permalink]
|
Nubi Honestly, being male, when an attractive lady is spoted, though will grant me ought, child rearing isn't my primary contemplation.
Oh, contraire. That is exactly what is going on. Maybe not in the "higher" parts of your brain, but that is the reason the woman is "attractive".
Look at the very word attractive it means that she pulls you towards her. Everything that we find attractive (sexy) about another person deals with their fitness and general health and their ability to pass on our genes.
True in evolution these secondary sexual characteristics are just that--a secondary driving force. The prime mover is "survival of the fittest." Read that to mean; if you're dead you can't have children. Attractiveness is a way of fine tuning evolution.
Evolution seems to move at a relatively slow pace…
Very slow, that's one of the reasons that Creationists have such a hard time grasping it. They try to relate it to time as they know it in their lifetimes. It's just too slow to make dramatic enough changes to do that. So they laugh at the small changes in a finch's beak (in response to El Nino) because they cannot comprehend that over vast amounts of time little changes add up to big ones.
Garrette
Neanderthals lost to Homo Erectus (or whichever version of us they were competing with)
That would have been Cro Magnon. Homo Erectus was a little guy who lived much earlier. (Hom O'Erectus was the ancestor of the Leprechauns  ) He was the one who decided to stop walking on his knuckles and so leave me with this nagging lower back ache.
the H.E.'s developed the capacity to lie whereas the Neanderthals could not understand it.
Actually Penny Patterson told me (hmmm, more shameless name dropping. I should point out that the only reason that I know all of these ape people is through my wife. When we met she was with the New York Zoological Society. She worked as George Schaller's assistant in those days) that although Koko is very truthful Michael the gorilla was known to lie. He once ripped the door off a refrigerator and ate all the treats inside. When confronted with his crime he blamed it on one of the docents he didn't like, a rather frail, petite woman. (No one said that he was a good lier)
But just think of how big a brain you need to lie.
First you have to understand that your actions have consequences beyond the immediate.
Then you must construct a "separate reality" in your head that has never existed in your experience, in an attempt to alter the predicted future.
Our ability to lie was the first step in our ability to create. Think about it in its most basic, primitive, sense. For what is a painting or a piece of music but a type of lie? A big brain is great. Don't leave home without it.
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 13:03:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Actually Penny Patterson told me (hmmm, more shameless name dropping. I should point out that the only reason that I know all of these ape people is through my wife. When we met she was with the New York Zoological Society. She worked as George Schaller's assistant in those days) that although Koko is very truthful Michael the gorilla was known to lie. He once ripped the door off a refrigerator and ate all the treats inside. When confronted with his crime he blamed it on one of the docents he didn't like, a rather frail, petite woman. (No one said that he was a good lier)
But just think of how big a brain you need to lie.
First you have to understand that your actions have consequences beyond the immediate.
Then you must construct a "separate reality" in your head that has never existed in your experience, in an attempt to alter the predicted future.
Our ability to lie was the first step in our ability to create. Think about it in its most basic, primitive, sense. For what is a painting or a piece of music but a type of lie? A big brain is great. Don't leave home without it.
I seem to recall you mentioning this in another thread some time ago.
So the ability to deceive is a byproduct of the larger brain (do the apes have a larger brain?) which is a means of conveying sexual desirability. And the deceptive byproduct predates 'humanity' in that it goes back to the apes (yes, yes, I know we're not on the same branch as the apes, but the point is that this particular ability is not unique to our intellectual development).
This deceptive ability was then pivotal to the development of supernaturalism which was itself an attempt to compensate for a pseudo's inability to otherwise compete with an alpha. Close?
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:10:01 [Permalink]
|
But just think of how big a brain you need to lie. First you have to understand that your actions have consequences beyond the immediate.
Then you must construct a "separate reality" in your head that has never existed in your experience, in an attempt to alter the predicted future. Our ability to lie was the first step in our ability to create. Think about it in its most basic, primitive, sense. For what is a painting or a piece of music but a type of lie?
Mmmm.., really interesting, powerful stuff there, Slater. Can see it, too. When cast in that light, the ability to entertain possibilities beyond, what our experience of reality would suggest, is. The ability to "lie," becomes fundamental to the 'creative process,' and a major evolutionary step for mankind. To be able to imagine, or 'lie' to ourselves, "What if we could actually travel faster than sound," becomes the first step in setting about to make it possible in reality. Thanks for the insight.
Poor ol' Koko, think me read she was isolated in some cage someplace, now. Having cast her fate with humans, does anyone, human, still talk with her?
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:19:40 [Permalink]
|
do the apes have a larger brain?
Relative to their body size they have quite large brains. Much bigger than is needed to just get by as most animals do.
the deceptive byproduct predates 'humanity' in that it goes back to the apes
The mental capacity is there. Lacking adequate vocal cords it hasn't yet been determined if they actually practice it.
Penny gave my wife a stack of material to read and in it are transcripts of conversations. Here is one that pertains. (remember the gorilla here is only a small child)
April 22, 1978, with Ellen, a volunteer.
Michael's first recorded lie happens when he is approximately five years old. He has yanked on and ripped a gaping hole in a volunteer's lab coat.
Ellen: Who did this?
Michael: Koko.
E: Who did this?
M: Penny
E: Who did this?
M: Mike.
yes, yes, I know we're not on the same branch as the apes
Sorry, but we are.
Usually the "tree of life" evolutionary diagrams are drawn from a human perspective so that it all seems to lead inexorably to us. But if you trace the family tree of the great apes you find (pardon me but I'm only going to count living species and not the many species of man and ape that have gone extinct) the first to branch off are the Orangutans, then much later a branch for Gorillas. Then closer to the present day Bonobos branch off which leaves us with Chimpanzees at the top of the evolutionary tree. If you go back down a branch you'll find the Bonobo line splitting into shoots. One of those shoots is us.
However, luckily for our self-esteem, we are the only ape who makes these diagrams so you will always see us as more advanced than anyone else. Even though the ancestry of all living things on Earth today is exactly the same length we consider ourselves to be more evolved.
It's so easy to fall into the misconception that evolution means progress, when all it really means is change.
Gould has some pretty funny jokes about this in Wonderful Life
This deceptive ability was then pivotal to the development of supernaturalism which was itself an attempt to compensate for a pseudo's inability to otherwise compete with an alpha. Close?
Right on target.
Since the ability to lie was a side effect of a sexual display (large brains) the individual could circumvent the evolutionary norm of a male of great size being the only one to pass on his genes. Thereby males who physically weren't silverbacks could pass on their big brained adaptation as well.
Sex and lies made us what we are today.
This does give the quote, "I am the Alpha and the Omega," a whole new spin. I wonder if JC repeatedly slapped his chest when he said that?
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:28:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Poor ol' Koko, think me read she was isolated in some cage someplace, now. Having cast her fate with humans, does anyone, human, still talk with her?
You've heard wrong. She lives at the Gorilla Foundation in Woodside CA. in a large compound that she shares with a young gentleman,er, gentleape named Ndume. And they are building a super duper new place on Maui at Wailea.
If you want to take a peek at her try www.koko.org
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:30:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
yes, yes, I know we're not on the same branch as the apes
Sorry, but we are.
I will defer.
quote:
This deceptive ability was then pivotal to the development of supernaturalism which was itself an attempt to compensate for a pseudo's inability to otherwise compete with an alpha. Close?
Right on target.
Since the ability to lie was a side effect of a sexual display (large brains) the individual could circumvent the evolutionary norm of a male of great size being the only one to pass on his genes. Thereby males who physically weren't silverbacks could pass on their big brained adaptation as well.
Sex and lies made us what we are today.
Now then, where do I go to find more info on this rather precise interpretation of the development of a very important aspect of humanity? Is this speculation, hypothesis, or well-supported theory?
quote:
This does give the quote, "I am the Alpha and the Omega," a whole new spin. I wonder if JC repeatedly slapped his chest when he said that?
Well, I've often said to my believer friends that even if JC existed, he certainly couldn't be the meek and kind fella generally depicted in the church nowadays. So I suspect he'd have had to thump not only his own chest but the heads of a few followers on occasion.
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:50:38 [Permalink]
|
Check me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 'deception techneque' predate not only our primate ancestors,(ex. a small dog barking down a much larger foe, such as a bear, or even within same species competition), or even pre-mammilian, (ex. a banded king snake mimicking the 'poison' colors of the coral snake). Of course, these traits probably evoved independent of any other deception trait, but I just wanted to mention that it is not a new, nor inherently anthropoid trait.
quote:
To compete against other species, the sex drive itself is not sufficient, no?
I may be wrong, again, but I was under the impression that special reproduction abilities wthin species was just another tool of competition among species, such as the high reproduction rate of rabbits. In reference to H. sapiens, wouldn't the ability to conciously control reproduction be a very powerful tool in competition with other species? However, I will be the first to admit that this tactic has not been learned well considering our history of infantacide, abortion and over population. Plus, I wouldn't think that any one weapon in the arsenol of natural selection would in itself be sufficient.
I had a student ask me, "Could the savior you believe in save Osama bin Laden?" Of course, we know the blood of Jesus Christ can save him, and then he must be executed.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell
|
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 14:57:29 [Permalink]
|
Boy, I'm sure glad this stuff is easy....
My kids still love me. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
