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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 10/17/2006 : 09:13:24 [Permalink]
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Luke wrote: quote:
Kim is a loon! He claims to have written 1500 books while in college, and shot five holes-in-one on the golf course his first try. Many other such legends are promulgated by the Dear Leader.
Whackjob.
No, he would be a loon or whackjob if he actually believed he had written 1500 books and all the other lies that the NK government tells the people. But he doesn't believe it and neither do his advisors and generals. They are very deliberate lies. NK is a 1984-style government that very intentionally and overtly uses all sorts of dishonest tactics to stay in power. And considering how long they have stayed in power despite being totally inept at providing education and basic necessities to their people shows they have some talents, though they be very cruel and selfish talents. In many ways NK likes the whole whackjob image for export. Real whackjobs are unpredictable. They do things for no reason. But everything that NK does has a calculated reason and risk behind it, as you yourself have implied by the mention of Machiavellian tactics.
Gorgo wrote:
quote:
I'd call the concept of Clinton's "engagement and negotiation" a stretch. They kept nuclear weapons in the South until 1998 (and probably still have them), they kept nukes pointed at South Korea, which is a violation of the NPT, the promised things they did not deliver. Clinton and Bush are terrorists, and they're blaming NK for attempting to make small moves to defend themselves.
First of all, don't water-down or confuse the meaning of a word like “terrorist” by calling someone who isn't one a terrorist. Because of the pure emotional reaction to “terrorist” these days, such an accusation removes the likelihood of further intelligible debate, sort of like comparing someone to Hitler or Nazis.
Second of all, NK started the war with a vicious attack on Seoul that devastated South Korea and killed scores of innocent citizens. Since then they have poured all their money into their military while their people starve to death. They piss off even their closest and most needed ally, China, and alienate and betray those who have given them aid (Japan, South Korea). I have zero sympathy for the NK government, and to say they are trying to “defend themselves” is a half-truth. The government is trying to defend itself. The poor and wretched people of NK were abandoned long long ago.
Dr. Mabuse wrote:
quote:
I'm outraged that both Russia and USA has nuclear weapons. USA has even shown that they are willing to use it!
Every country has a right to defend itself. It's hypocritical of any nuclear capable country to deny other coutries to develope their own nukes, through boycot or otherwise.
I, too, am outraged that nuclear weapons have not by now been globally banned. However, until there is a supranational force strong enough to enforce such a ban, countries will the means will continue to have nukes. And while I agree with you that countries have the right to defend themselves, NK is not defending itself by building nukes. If they had nukes it would not protect them from an attack – it would only insure that more people die. And if they used nukes first, that would guarantee their destruction. NK has a despicable government. They do have the right to defend themselves because they do not represent their people, but only themselves – the few in power.
Atomic
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 09:25:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
First of all, don't water-down or confuse the meaning of a word like “terrorist” by calling someone who isn't one a terrorist. Because of the pure emotional reaction to “terrorist” these days, such an accusation removes the likelihood of further intelligible debate, sort of like comparing someone to Hitler or Nazis.
Second of all, NK started the war with a vicious attack on Seoul that devastated South Korea and killed scores of innocent citizens. Since then they have poured all their money into their military while their people starve to death. They piss off even their closest and most needed ally, China, and alienate and betray those who have given them aid (Japan, South Korea). I have zero sympathy for the NK government, and to say they are trying to “defend themselves” is a half-truth. The government is trying to defend itself. The poor and wretched people of NK were abandoned long long ago.
Well, there is one thing that I gain from these discussions. I do try to read about some of these things to supplement what little knowledge I have. So, I guess they're not all wasted. I'll try to stay out of this discussion, as I know less about North Korea than I do about most things, and I'm totally ignorant about most things.
I guess it's an error for me to put Clinton fully to blame as he is not the whole government. However, it was the Clinton government and the Republican led Congress that dropped the ball here. They did not feel the need to keep up their end of the bargain, thinking that the economic collapse in NK would end Kim's rule. They did not and do not conduct themselves well as members of the Nuclear Club.
Clinton and Bush, as well as most presidents, have done quite a bit to earn the word "terrorist." It's only watered down by those who only use the term to describe terror committed by those who do not have governments behind them. Clinton's destruction of Yugoslavia and Iraq, as well as the pointing of nuclear weapons towards North Korea earn him the title as well. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/17/2006 09:27:33 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 17:21:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Clinton and Bush, as well as most presidents, have done quite a bit to earn the word "terrorist." It's only watered down by those who only use the term to describe terror committed by those who do not have governments behind them. Clinton's destruction of Yugoslavia and Iraq, as well as the pointing of nuclear weapons towards North Korea earn him the title as well.
Wow. That's really out there. I'm no fan of Clinton, but that is really, really out there.
Please explain Clinton's destruction of Yugoslavia and Iraq.
For Iraq, I am guessing you mean the sanctions and the WWP's press releases of 1.5 million dead from the sanctions.
As for Yugoslavia, I am guessing you mean Bosnia-Herzegovina.
In the military, I was an active part of both of those. Just so you know.
Also, during Clinton's time in office, Bosnia was a NATO operation. And Iraq was a UN operation.
So please carry on and explain how Clinton was a terrorist?
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/17/2006 17:26:01 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 17:48:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dr. Mabuse wrote:
quote:
Every country has a right to defend itself. It's hypocritical of any nuclear capable country to deny other coutries to develope their own nukes, through boycot or otherwise.
And while I agree with you that countries have the right to defend themselves, NK is not defending itself by building nukes.
Of course they are. It's a deterrent. It comes from the idea that a good offence is the best defence. Either you have an army strong enough to deter other nations from attacking because they know they will get their ass kicked. Or you build a few nukes to flatten a city or three of the country that might attack. That way no one dares attack.
Mission accomplished. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 04:05:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
In the military, I was an active part of both of those. Just so you know.
I'm sure that's somehow relevant to the discussion, but we'll never know because I'm stopping here.
See what happens here is I answer your questions, you don't understand what I say, Dave W. asks some irrelevant questions, someone else says something very arrogant, then I'm the asshole for trying to answer everyone.
I'm just a spectator here. Carry on.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/18/2006 04:05:44 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 08:52:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
In the military, I was an active part of both of those. Just so you know.
I'm sure that's somehow relevant to the discussion, but we'll never know because I'm stopping here.
See what happens here is I answer your questions, you don't understand what I say, Dave W. asks some irrelevant questions, someone else says something very arrogant, then I'm the asshole for trying to answer everyone.
I'm just a spectator here. Carry on.
Okay. That's your choice if you want to leave on a note that Clinton and Bush are terrorists.
I'm getting tired of the overheatedness of this Politics section myself. Pass the popcorn, would ya?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 10:05:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
See what happens here is I answer your questions, you don't understand what I say, Dave W. asks some irrelevant questions, someone else says something very arrogant, then I'm the asshole for trying to answer everyone.
Nah, it's for comments like that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 10:15:32 [Permalink]
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On the surface the South Koreans ignore the North in a way that Americans would find very odd. They report the weather in Pyongyang like you can take a day trip there for example. However they do not take the North lightly and their ultra-modern 600K+ strong army is no small deterrant either. They did however try very hard to open up to the North recently, even removing some of the many lines of defense from the border area, such as anti-tank barriers, a move they are coming to regret.
IMO Bush is an active and passive terrorist, Clinton was a passive terrorist. Passive meaning his policies will cause many thousands of deaths worldwide, as did the policies of most of the Presidents before him, in one way or another.
So we all support terrorism, hooray! |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 10/18/2006 10:16:10 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 11:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nah, it's for comments like that.
I defer to your greater wisdom on the subject. Back to the discussion now, please.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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