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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2006 : 22:25:50
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Yet more evidence of confident incompetence.
More evidence showing that Bush and Rummy either knew better, or should have known better, than to try to invade and administer Iraq on the cheap. In fact, the 1999 secret war games indicated that even a huge force of 400,000 troops was likely to fail after an invasion, with Iraq falling into chaos:.quote:
War simulation in 1999 pointed out Iraq invasion problems
POSTED: 10:15 p.m. EST, November 4, 2006
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A series of secret U.S. war games in 1999 showed that an invasion and post-war administration of Iraq would require 400,000 troops, nearly three times the number there now.
And even then, the games showed, the country still had a chance of dissolving into chaos.
In the simulation, called Desert Crossing, 70 military, diplomatic and intelligence participants concluded the high troop levels would be needed to keep order, seal borders and take care of other security needs.
The documents came to light Saturday through a Freedom of Information Act request by George Washington University's National Security Archive, an independent research institute and library.
"The conventional wisdom is the U.S. mistake in Iraq was not enough troops," said Thomas Blanton, the archive's director. "But the Desert Crossing war game in 1999 suggests we would have ended up with a failed state even with 400,000 troops on the ground."
There are about 144,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, down from a peak in January of about 160,000.
A week after the invasion, in March 2003, the Pentagon said there were 250,000 U.S. ground force troops inside Iraq, along with 40,000 coalition force troops.
. . .
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/04/2006 22:33:52
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 23:10:46 [Permalink]
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So we should send more troops to Iraq, right? |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 23:26:06 [Permalink]
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And now the neocon rats are deserting the sinking ship
Although not mentioned in the article Canada's most embarassing export David Frum is among them. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 23:56:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
So we should send more troops to Iraq, right?
Is that your conclusion, Mycroft?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 02:30:58 [Permalink]
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As I recall, the chickenhawk and war criminal Rumsfeld said something to the effect of: "....Six days, perhaps, or maybe six weeks. Surely not six months." and then proceeded to do it on the cheap like a Republican an idiot a Republican idiot. Whilst he was spouting that garbage, an ignored estimate came forth to the tune of some 500,000 troops, minimum.
These pathetic dilettantes were, of course, thinking of the 6 Days War in '67, and figured that if the Jews could do it, so could we. The difference being that the Jews were competent and our war planning amounted to no more than a self-congratulatory circle-jerk.
Hey, you know what? Fuck them! Fuck 'em all! Tuesday's a'comin'!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 03:32:00 [Permalink]
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Fuck 'em all come the Revolution Tuesday, Filth!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2006 : 09:21:00 [Permalink]
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Yeah, on tuesday....
Somebody explain to me how the senate, which isn't susceptable to gerrymandering of voting districts, is being predicted to stay in republican control?
But yeah, the general who told Herr Rumsfeld that the minimum troop count needed in Iraq would be 500,000 was fired.
Which is tyipcal of this administration. Competence gets you sacked (probably with a real burlap sack) and blatant incompetence gets you a freakin medal.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 01:01:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
So we should send more troops to Iraq, right?
Is that your conclusion, Mycroft?
I suppose it depends on what you want to have happen in Iraq. What do you think? |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 01:21:39 [Permalink]
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At this late date in the clusterfuck that Bush and Rummy have created, I don't think that anything much short of mobilizing our nation on a WWII scale would result in either stability or "victory" in Iraq. But the guys with the power continue to repeat doing what doesn't work.
Now please say what you think, Mycroft.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/06/2006 01:23:49 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 11:30:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
At this late date in the clusterfuck that Bush and Rummy have created, I don't think that anything much short of mobilizing our nation on a WWII scale would result in either stability or "victory" in Iraq. But the guys with the power continue to repeat doing what doesn't work.
Now please say what you think, Mycroft.
I think there are 25 million people in Iraq, the vast majority of which want to get on with their lives and rebuild the economy they had back in the 70's.
I think going to war with Iraq was a huge mistake, but an even larger mistake would be to abandon these 25 million people to the bloodbath that would be the civil war that would happen if we left.
I disagree that it would take mobilization on a WWII scale, but I do believe that if more troops are required that we should get them. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 12:09:41 [Permalink]
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Why don't we sit down with the countries surrounding Iraq and help them form a coalition and turn the whole mess over to them. They could take over the transition and could send in a their own peace keeping forces. We could even kick in 75% of the cost of supporting the coalition - save us a lot of money.
The countries surrounding an unstable Iraq have the most to lose anyway.
We would end up looking like the good guys (well at least we would look less like satan) and if the Iraq degenerates to a complete civil war at least the 'Arab' states would share somewhat in the responsibility.
I think it is time for the US to act like a super power instead of a deranged highschool student with an AK-47.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 12:39:04 [Permalink]
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That civil war began the day Saddam dropped out of sight, and it ain't gonna go away until they've settled their differences.
The problem is that our idiot leaders didn't understand that the rivalries, even hatreds, virtually all theological, go back to the days of Muhammad and probably before. And the West has a less than glorious record of plunder and colonization in the region; a record that the witless Bush has shown himself determined to continue.
The stupid bastards don't even read history! Shit, by the evidence, even I knew more about Mid-eastern culture than this utterly confused and utterly dishonest, confederacy of dunces did, going in.
So, what's the solution...? I don't have one. I must leave it to others wiser than I to try and find a way to clean up the puddle of stinking puke left by the diseased dog on this living room floor. All I really know is that what we are doing isn't working and it's past time to give the job to someone, anyone, who might be able to get it right.
Y'know, Bush was given the chance to become one of history's greatest, political figures and he spurned it in favor of the conquest of Iraq; just like the crusaders before him.
It is too late, friend Mycroft. The bloodbath is already here.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2006 : 22:55:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
That civil war began the day Saddam dropped out of sight, and it ain't gonna go away until they've settled their differences.
Iraq before Saddam wasn't like that, why should we assume Iraq after Saddam must be?
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
The problem is that our idiot leaders didn't understand that the rivalries, even hatreds, virtually all theological, go back to the days of Muhammad and probably before. And the West has a less than glorious record of plunder and colonization in the region; a record that the witless Bush has shown himself determined to continue.
The differences between Suni and Shia go back to the succession of Mohammed.
I really don't think it's appropriate to call the brief period of British administration after the fall of the Ottoman Empire “colonialism.” It's not as though they colonized the place.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
It is too late, friend Mycroft. The bloodbath is already here.
There is a matter of degree. Whatever is happening now it would be irresponsible and immoral to pretend as though it couldn't get worse, much worse, if we left.
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