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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
 Posted - 11/11/2006 : 10:06:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
ergo123:
But if all the critiques of your thinking come from you then the "minimization of the problem" is minimal...
Who said all of the critiques of my thinking come from me?
No one. Why do you ask? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 10:35:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
ergo123:
But if all the critiques of your thinking come from you then the "minimization of the problem" is minimal...
Who said all of the critiques of my thinking come from me?
No one. Why do you ask?
So then, what was the point of this reply to me?
quote:
ergo123:But if all the critiques of your thinking come from you then the "minimization of the problem" is minimal...
Just a kind of a general statement? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 11:24:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I ran this thread by Michelle. She happens to be out of town but she has her laptop with her. Anyhow, she sent this back to me to format in any way I thought best.
“Ok, David. All the stuff in Red is Ergo. I took a lot from different threads.”
I reformatted what she wrote (adding forum code) but did not change a word. Like Visine, I took the red out.
quote:
ergo123:
Referred to as "intellectualization," over-relying on rational processes inhibits the examination of the very feelings and emotions that drive introspection and self-awareness of one's own hidden agenda.
I would say that it is important to point out that “critical thinking” and “intellectualization are not the same thing and cannot be interchangeable.
Grammar aside, I don't see why it is an "important" point. I clearly do not interchange the two.
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quote:
ergo123:
So applying critical thinking to an issue at the expense of an examination of ones feelings and emotions to the issue retards the examination of those feelings and emotions and thereby allows the subconscious mind to direct the rational processes unchecked.
There is a supposition here that by applying critical thinking one has NOT examined feelings and emotions. That is one of them there straw men, I think.
I make no such supposition. I clearly point out that the problem arises when "applying critical thinking to an issue at the expense of an examination of ones feelings and emotions..." I take time in chosing my words. Please do me a favor and read them all...
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ergo123:
This is how one fools one's self. It is the action of the subconscious protecting the conscious from having to deal with feelings and emotions the subconscious believes will be too disturbing for the conscious mind to handle.
So then, Ergo is saying that the feelings and emotions aren't really unchecked, when one intellectualizes. The subconscious is checking, right?
No. The subconscious is acting upon the feelings and emotions. The subconscious is unrestrained--i.e., unchecked. When the conscious mind is aware of the influences of the subconscious mind, the conscious mind can override subconscious impulses--i.e., keep one's conscious thoughts, processes and behavior "in check." This process of keeping the conscious mind "in check" can influence future actions and interpretations of the subconscious mind. This is how systematic desensitization of a phobia works.
quote:
quote:
ergo123:
My god, davey--it's times like this where having a god would come in han |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 11:28:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
ergo123:
But if all the critiques of your thinking come from you then the "minimization of the problem" is minimal...
Who said all of the critiques of my thinking come from me?
No one. Why do you ask?
So then, what was the point of this reply to me?
quote:
ergo123:But if all the critiques of your thinking come from you then the "minimization of the problem" is minimal...
Just a kind of a general statement?
Exactly. Why, are those banned, too? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 11:48:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
ergo123:
Exactly. Why, are those banned, too?
Do you want to have a civil conversation or not? I could just walk away from this because honestly, I don't need it.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 12:08:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
ergo123:
Exactly. Why, are those banned, too?
Do you want to have a civil conversation or not? I could just walk away from this because honestly, I don't need it.
And when in a civil conversation does the term "bite me" typically come up...  |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 12:27:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
And when in a civil conversation does the term "bite me" typically come up...
Usually at the end.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 15:59:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
And when in a civil conversation does the term "bite me" typically come up...
Usually at the end.
When I have a civilized conversation with someone, "bite me" never comes up. I guess we live in different civilizations... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 20:05:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Dehumanization? Why do you characterize my consideration that you might be confused dehumanization? Do you see people who are confused as somehow less than human?
No, it's clear that you do.quote:
You have shown me several examples of failure to understand the relationship between the constructs central to the discussion here (as I pointed out above).
You're certainly not making them clear, and you seem to be refusing to clarify, in order to terminate this discussion. After all, you put the condition on that you wouldn't elaborate unless I understood, and since you're unwilling to help me understand, your work here is finished. You have successfully avoided having to provide evidence for your earlier statements, by asserting confusion on my part and an arbitrary rule about it.quote:
I don't see you as being somehow less than human because of this.
Sure you do, and your patronizing attitude continues to tell me that.quote:
quote:
Oh, yes, I see that, but you're the one who were making them interdependent in these discussions.
See, you are still confused. I'm not making them independent.
No, you're the one who is confused here, as I clearly used the word "interdependent," and I meant to use "interdependent." It's obvious that you're not making them "independent" when I've asserted that you've made them "interdependent."quote:
They just are independent. I have no control over the constructs at issue here. They are what they are and their relationship to eachother is not defined by my description of it.
No, you've simply asserted scenarios wherein the "output" of one is used as "input" to the other, making them interdependent, even though they can be completely independent as well.quote:
It's not a matter of reading your mind, davey. The phrase "make a difference" is a common phrase. And unless you have some secret meaning for it, I understand what the phrase means. If you want to play word games to defend your ego, just let me know...
But you're unwilling to state what you think it means, you simply assert your understanding and to hell with any attempts at communication of actual information. Got it.quote:
quote:
Actually, before you even start on the "make a difference" stuff, would you tell me if you think the veracity of any assertion of fact would "make a difference" to me?
Only in you are aware of the assertion.
So I am now "aware" of an assertion of which I have absolutely no evidence of its veracity in any way (for or against): "ergo trimmed his toenails on Nov 4, 2006." Just being aware of that assertion somehow - according to you - "makes a difference" to me. In the most pedantic way, yes it does "make a difference" in that some of my neurons have been rewired to accomodate it as an unevidenced assertion. But you, ergo, wouldn't hide behind language like a two-year-old, now would you? So just how would simply being "aware" of an assertion "make a difference" to me?quote:
quote:
I mean, would the veracity of "ergo trimmed his toenails on Nov 4, 2006" make a difference to me, or is it just the veracity of the NIST report that allegedly makes a difference to me?
Well, davey, you came up with that assertion, so it must have some relevance to you...
I see no evidence to support your assertion. I see no evidence of anything you're claiming. I was obviously mistaken in thinking that giving you the green light to talk about your "banned three" would mean that you'd actually be presenting evidence from their works. Obviously, you were only griping about not being able to mention them because you were forbidden from mentioning them, rather than complaining because you were unable to present a case for your assertions. Whether or not those authors are forbidden to you makes no difference in your outward behaviour when it comes to defending your arguments. The only difference it made to you was as another nail holding you to your self-created cross. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 20:24:44 [Permalink]
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Davey: What part of 'I'm not going to waste my time presenting evidence or theory until you show me evidence that you understand' don't you get?
You keep complaining I don't show evidence. From now on, and until you show you understand, refer to this post for my reason. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 20:37:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Davey: What part of 'I'm not going to waste my time presenting evidence or theory until you show me evidence that you understand' don't you get?
None of it: I understand that you've set up a nifty little roadblock so that you won't ever have to provide any evidence, since you refuse to provide clarification for things that you claim I don't understand. Bravo! You've discovered a wonderful way to terminate discussion while laying the blame at someone else's feet. How could I possibly hope to understand your "theory" when you refuse to present it because I can't show evidence that I understand it already? Textbook passive-agressive behaviour on your part. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 20:52:35 [Permalink]
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| No, davey--I don't need you to understand the theory before you hear the theory. I need you to understand the foundational constructs of the theory before I waste my time explaining the theory. Oh--but you knew that already, didn't you davey boy. That was just the smoke screen you threw up to try to hide the fact that you don't get the foundational constructs... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 21:16:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
No, davey--I don't need you to understand the theory before you hear the theory. I need you to understand the foundational constructs of the theory before I waste my time explaining the theory.
It actually doesn't make any functional difference whether they're "foundational constructs" (do you mean "premises?") or parts of the theory itself when you refuse to clarify anything about them in order to prevent me from understanding them so that you won't have to provide any evidence of anything.quote:
Oh--but you knew that already, didn't you davey boy.
No, actually, I missed that part.quote:
That was just the smoke screen you threw up to try to hide the fact that you don't get the foundational constructs...
Whether that's the case or not is irrelevant to the fact of your passive-agressive and insulting behaviour here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 21:24:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Dehumanization? Why do you characterize my consideration that you might be confused dehumanization? Do you see people who are confused as somehow less than human?
No, it's clear that you do.
If it is so clear to you, why not answer my question of Why do you characterize my consideration that you might be confused as dehumanization?
quote:
quote:
You have shown me several examples of failure to understand the relationship between the constructs central to the discussion here (as I pointed out above).
You're certainly not making them clear, and you seem to be refusing to clarify, in order to terminate this discussion.
What do you need clarified, davey.
quote:
After all, you put the condition on that you wouldn't elaborate unless I understood, and since you're unwilling to help me understand, your work here is finished. You have successfully avoided having to provide evidence for your earlier statements, by asserting confusion on my part and an arbitrary rule about it.
Oh, so imposing arbitrary rules is only okay when you do it... I see...
quote:
quote:
Oh, yes, I see that, but you're the one who were making them interdependent in these discussions.
See, you are still confused. I'm not making them independent.
quote:
No, you're the one who is confused here, as I clearly used the word "interdependent," and I meant to use "interdependent." It's obvious that you're not making them "independent" when I've asserted that you've made them "interdependent."
Sorry--I misread your post. But I am not making the constructs interdependent, either. The constructs are independent--which means they cannot be interdependent.
quote:
They just are independent. I have no control over the constructs at issue here. They are what they are and their relationship to each other is not defined by my description of it.
quote:
No, you've simply asserted scenarios wherein the "output" of one is used as "input" to the other, making them interdependent, even though they can be completely independent as well.
You see, davey--that's why I keep saying you don't understand the foundational constructs here. They cannot be interdependent and independent at the same time.
quote:
It's not a matter of reading your mind, davey. The phrase "make a difference" is a common phrase. And unless you have some secret meaning for it, I understand what the phrase means. If you want to play word games to defend your ego, just let me know...
quote:
But you're unwilling to state what you think it means, you simply assert your understanding and to hell with any attempts at communication of actual information. Got it.
Well davey, why didn't you just state what you mean by it--in the spirit of communication...
quote:
quote:
Actually, before you even start on the "make a difference" stuff, would you tell me if you think the veracity of any assertion of fact would "make a difference" to me?
Only if you are aware of the assertion.
quote:
So I am now "aware" of an assertion of which I have absolutely no evidence of its veracity in any way (for or against): "ergo trimmed his toenails on Nov 4, 2006." Just being aware of that assertion somehow - according to you - "makes a difference" to me.
No, dave. The veracity of the assertion is what makes a difference to you--i.e., whether the assertion is true or not makes a difference to you.
quote:
In the most pedantic way, yes it does "make a difference" in that some of my neurons have been rewired to accomodate it as an unevidenced assertion.
Why do you consider that fact "pedantic," dave? Or is it that you are trivializing that fact because it proves you wrong...?
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But you, ergo, wouldn't hide behind language like a two-year-old, now would you?
Wow--how many pedantic 2-yr-olds do you know of, davey?
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So just how would simply being "aware" of an assertion "make a difference" to me?
See--you are missing the foundation here. See above for clarification.
quote:
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 21:47:35 [Permalink]
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Not much time right now, but this seems incredible:quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
The evidence of its relevance to you is that it came out of [b]your[\b] brain, davey.
Wow. So you seem to be saying that anything I can dream up as not making a difference to me actually does make a difference to me, like the mass of an average Greek coin, or whether amythest will exist on any planet that might orbit the star Vega in a billion years. This is why it was important to find out what you thought "makes a difference" means, because you're obviously using it in the most technical sense possible (that of neuronal modifications), whereas I was talking about the veracity of assertions affecting my behaviour in some substantial way. Knowing the veracity of any number of assertions might make me a better Trivial Pursuit player, but that itself is trivial - I'll never go "pro," there's not enough money in it. So how, again, would knowing whether or not you trimmed your toenails on a particular date "make a difference" in my life (for example, like the Big Brothers and Big Sisters programs exist to "make a difference" to underprivileged kids)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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