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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:25:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I fully admit that I have no sources for this, but I have heard from multiple places at different times that it's about 80% of Christians that would say they believe in creation. Creation and Christianity go hand in hand. If you are a Bible believing Christian,(which in my opinion is the only real kind) then creation is your only option. Though I don;t believe this blindly. I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions. I DO NOT live a blind faith. I have tested the Bible, and have found that it holds up to scrutiny.
Mmm, creation does not necessarily mean literal, "poof there be light" creation.
Like my mother (a Christian!) would say, "God gave the scientists wisdom to discover the truths of our world."
She is a Bible-believing Christian, too. Reads the book every night and has read it cover to cover. Probably would have got better than you in that test - since I did, and she's taught me. She, too, disagrees with lots of it. Including the part about homosexuality, by the by.
What does your test says about condoning and even encouraging slavery, mmm? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 12/07/2006 15:57:38 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:32:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions. I DO NOT live a blind faith. I have tested the Bible, and have found that it holds up to scrutiny.
What testing procedure did you follow in order to verify that land plants were created prior to all sea life (Genesis 1:11-22)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:51:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
As for the prices of the conference, I was speaking to those accusing Dr.Dobson of viewing this as a money making opportunity.
Yes and he is trying to sell something that is free. Also, note that if man (fallible) must interpret the bible (infallible) that makes the interpretation fallible and thus useless as an infallible source.
Also, my argument is sound the bible is contradictory it has been shown millions of times over. As for your challenge:
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
Yes they do
(Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
No they don't
(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
quote:
For all the weak arguments about homosexuality, and laviathans; I'm not going to turn this into a debate on homosexuality.
Proof they are weak. Prove anything I have stated is false.
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I have debated it before, and my opinion on it is clear. It does not make me closed minded that I don't want to turn it that way.
Your opinion is useless. No one cares about your opinion. Only evidence and fact matter. Show me the facts. Also, it does make you closed-minded. That is the definition. You assume the bible is right and that cannot be challenged.
quote:
Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.
The fossil record says so. Try again to use some facts and data nt just wishful thinking.
quote:
I would like to put up this challenge.
see above.
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:58:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions. I DO NOT live a blind faith. I have tested the Bible, and have found that it holds up to scrutiny.
Please, elaborate. What test have you performed? Did you test to see if god gave moses the ten commandments? Did you test to see if the whale swallowed Jonah? You have not tested anything. The bible is not anymore testable than Peter Pan, The Odyssy, The Aneid, or The Transformers Mini-series. They are all fairy tales and stories. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 16:21:41 [Permalink]
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Bible Apologetics, or bullshitting 101:
"Well, I know that in 1 Bullshit Chapter 1 verse 8 we read:
The rags were wet.
And then later in 1 Bullshit Chapter 2 verse 8 we read:
The rags were dry.
Now that seems like a contradiction, but lets look at the word dry. Doesn't that just mean in want of water? So really 1 Bullshit Chapter 2 verse 8 is saying that the rags were in want of water, meaning not supersaturated with water. The rags were wet of course but not soaking wet. Silly unbelievers think there is a contradiction there, but really there is none at all." |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 12/07/2006 16:36:10 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 18:55:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I missed 7 of the questions. The Bible is clearly something that is supposed to be taught. For all of christian history preaching has been a key part of ministry, because not all people can read the Bible in the same way, as it is a complicated book. While there are many perversions of preaching, a faithful teacher breaks down a scripture to know what it meant originally, and what it meant to the original listeners, and then applies it to our lives. Nobody with an ounce of rational thought has ever said that an uneducated person who knows nothing about the Bible will be able to learn from it as effectively as a well trained theologian.
As for the prices of the conference, I was speaking to those accusing Dr.Dobson of viewing this as a money making opportunity.
C-88, long time no see, bud.
Dobson, of Focus on the Family fame, has a history of inventing crises to enrich himself. I'll hazard a guess based on his usual modus operandi that his "test" in which most evangelicals failed was strictly based on his interpretation of scripture and not the actual text of the Bible in context.
Sorry, C-88, I just can see this as much more than Dobson attempting to make a buck and spread his particular interpretation over the actual text of the Bible.
quote:
For all the weak arguments about homosexuality, and laviathans; I'm not going to turn this into a debate on homosexuality. I have debated it before, and my opinion on it is clear. It does not make me closed minded that I don't want to turn it that way. I have studied it most likely as extensively as you have, and have come to a different conclusion, and I don't think that we would get anywhere if the debate went that direction. Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.
I would like to put up this challenge. I believe that nobody here can find a significant contradiction in the Bible, and also I don't believe that anybody can give any geographical record that contradicts the Bible. There may be places that we have not found that the Bible mentions, but I don't believe that you could point to something that is not there though the Bible says it is.
OK. Can you define significant in a bit more specific terms as the Bible goes quite far afield and has many parables and messages? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 16:31:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Okay, the most significant thing I took out of this thread till now:
"behe" means emptyness? Do you have a source for this, since I never realized how appropriately named a certain ID-proponent was.
Sorry, I missed this post for so long. My main source was Secret Origins of the Bible which cites some hebrew scholarship as sources (articles ect.). Also, I asked two of my old professors who teach Hebrew and they confirmed for what they are worth. [Dr. Ivan D. Park and Dr. Gerald Green] |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 14:54:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I missed 7 of the questions. The Bible is clearly something that is supposed to be taught. For all of christian history preaching has been a key part of ministry, because not all people can read the Bible in the same way, as it is a complicated book. While there are many perversions of preaching, a faithful teacher breaks down a scripture to know what it meant originally, and what it meant to the original listeners, and then applies it to our lives. Nobody with an ounce of rational thought has ever said that an uneducated person who knows nothing about the Bible will be able to learn from it as effectively as a well trained theologian.
As for the prices of the conference, I was speaking to those accusing Dr.Dobson of viewing this as a money making opportunity.
For all the weak arguments about homosexuality, and laviathans; I'm not going to turn this into a debate on homosexuality. I have debated it before, and my opinion on it is clear. It does not make me closed minded that I don't want to turn it that way. I have studied it most likely as extensively as you have, and have come to a different conclusion, and I don't think that we would get anywhere if the debate went that direction. Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.
I would like to put up this challenge. I believe that nobody here can find a significant contradiction in the Bible, and also I don't believe that anybody can give any geographical record that contradicts the Bible. There may be places that we have not found that the Bible mentions, but I don't believe that you could point to something that is not there though the Bible says it is.
I realize that you are all licking your chops thinking that I cornered myself, but one more clarification; when I say no contradiction, I mean something that would effect the message of the Bible. There is almost nobody alive who would say that the english Bible we hold is completely infallible. The only infallible scriptures were the original sciptures. So a translaion error does not count as a contradiction. There is no place in scripture where it says one things, and then says the opposite somewhere else, that can not be explained away relatively easily.
So that I am not swamped by a bunch of questions at once, I will try to explain the first 3 I recieve, and then if we wanted to keep going we could. Please, take your best shot!
Emphasis mine: Guess you were just kidding, huh? You haven't even addressed the first one you recieved. Guess relatively easy is itself relative, huh? Or maybe you have just realized that you have been compartmentalizing your skepticism to maintain your fairy tale. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 23:06:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Amazing, isn't it? It just cracks me up to learn that the vast majority of the fundies are ignorant even about their own belief system.
You have to be ignorant, willfully so, to "believe" the fundie christian line.
You have to actively deny reality to consider the bible to be literal.
So no, I do not find it shocking to see that the religious people are bible illiterate. I wish every one of them would sit down and actually read their book, cover to cover, just once. The bible is one of the best arguments in favor of atheism out there.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 13:18:10 [Permalink]
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| Don't you just hate it when they do that? At least GK sticks around after making his audacious claims. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 05:41:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
If you are a Bible believing Christian,(which in my opinion is the only real kind) then creation is your only option. Though I don;t believe this blindly. I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions.
To the conclusion that creation is the only option for the Bible believing Christian?
Yet, while I was a Christian member of the Pentecostal Church in Sweden, I didn't have any trouble with the idea that life on Earth had evolved over millions of years. I believed that God was behind it all, acting as an agent, but it was in the small things.
It's one thing to believe in a Creator that was the origin of the world we live in, it's a completely different thing to deny the huge load of evidence that says that the world is much older than the 6000 years a literal reading of Genesis tells us. To deny reality like that is completely insane.
quote:
I DO NOT live a blind faith. I have tested the Bible, and have found that it holds up to scrutiny.
How come you reach such a different conclusion than the rest of us?
I can't tell if I have read and studied the Bible more than you, but you can bet there are several members of the board that are much more Bible literate than you. Why do you think they have come to a different conclusion than you?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 08:43:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
If you are a Bible believing Christian,(which in my opinion is the only real kind) then creation is your only option. Though I don't believe this blindly. I have studied as much as anybody here to come to my conclusions.
This is absurud. The only way to believe the creations myth is to believe it blindly, as there is no evidence for the creation myth.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2007 : 01:30:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
I missed 7 of the questions. The Bible is clearly something that is supposed to be taught. For all of christian history preaching has been a key part of ministry, because not all people can read the Bible in the same way, as it is a complicated book. While there are many perversions of preaching, a faithful teacher breaks down a scripture to know what it meant originally, and what it meant to the original listeners, and then applies it to our lives. Nobody with an ounce of rational thought has ever said that an uneducated person who knows nothing about the Bible will be able to learn from it as effectively as a well trained theologian.
As for the prices of the conference, I was speaking to those accusing Dr.Dobson of viewing this as a money making opportunity.
For all the weak arguments about homosexuality, and laviathans; I'm not going to turn this into a debate on homosexuality. I have debated it before, and my opinion on it is clear. It does not make me closed minded that I don't want to turn it that way. I have studied it most likely as extensively as you have, and have come to a different conclusion, and I don't think that we would get anywhere if the debate went that direction. Laviathans on the other hand; a creature like this only wouldn't fit in if you are viewing it from your world view. From a christian world view however, dinosaurs would have co-exsisted with humans, meaning that there were many creatures we don't know about. Why not a laviathan.
I would like to put up this challenge. I believe that nobody here can find a significant contradiction in the Bible, and also I don't believe that anybody can give any geographical record that contradicts the Bible. There may be places that we have not found that the Bible mentions, but I don't believe that you could point to something that is not there though the Bible says it is.
I realize that you are all licking your chops thinking that I cornered myself, but one more clarification; when I say no contradiction, I mean something that would effect the message of the Bible. There is almost nobody alive who would say that the english Bible we hold is completely infallible. The only infallible scriptures were the original sciptures. So a translaion error does not count as a contradiction. There is no place in scripture where it says one things, and then says the opposite somewhere else, that can not be explained away relatively easily.
So that I am not swamped by a bunch of questions at once, I will try to explain the first 3 I recieve, and then if we wanted to keep going we could. Please, take your best shot!
Wow C-88 is like Sylvia Browne versus the JREF. Only this time, he made the challenge then ducked out.
The counter for days since challenge was made without follow through: 42 |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 01/18/2007 17:30:14 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 21:27:43 [Permalink]
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Hey guys,
I'm so sorry that I never came back and did what I said I was going to do. I started a new job right as I issued that challenge, and have had no time for anything. I have barely been at a computer since then, so I definetly have not had time to sit down and write elaborate defenses of my faith, and then the follow-ups that would without a doubt come after it. So please forgive me for talking big and then disappearing as soon as I had done so. I realize how bad that makes me and my beliefs look, and that is the only thing I wish I could change about how that played out. I don't want to undermine what I was trying to say. So in short; I may someday soon be able to again begin discussions about the things which I am passionate about, but now is not that time. I am far too busy, and any time spent on here would only take away from time spent with my family, which is already not as much as much as I would like it to be.
So again, sorry for jetting after talking a big game. I hope you understand. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 22:45:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by byhisgrace88
Hey guys,
I'm so sorry that I never came back and did what I said I was going to do. I started a new job right as I issued that challenge, and have had no time for anything. I have barely been at a computer since then, so I definetly have not had time to sit down and write elaborate defenses of my faith, and then the follow-ups that would without a doubt come after it. So please forgive me for talking big and then disappearing as soon as I had done so. I realize how bad that makes me and my beliefs look, and that is the only thing I wish I could change about how that played out. I don't want to undermine what I was trying to say. So in short; I may someday soon be able to again begin discussions about the things which I am passionate about, but now is not that time. I am far too busy, and any time spent on here would only take away from time spent with my family, which is already not as much as much as I would like it to be.
So again, sorry for jetting after talking a big game. I hope you understand.
Sure, no problem. Thanks for explaining things. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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