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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 12/13/2006 : 07:11:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
It's their kicks.
Nah. It's yours. Kids don't need lies to have fun.
No, but they need fantasies. With my daughter, I allow fantasy to encourage her growth in creativity and imagination. At such a young age, the brain is nowhere near fully formed. How can we expect a young mind to understand adult concepts?
As Jesus once allegedly said, you need the mind of child to come to god.
But you need the mind of an adult to really understand what the god concept is. 
I think most adults that still cling to magical thinking are like human puppies - just haven't grown up much like that dogs are really wolf puppies in a state of arrested development. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 07:28:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
The thought occurs: as compared to most of the other myths, legends and outright bullshit we indoctrinate our children with, Santa is pretty innocuous. 
In a sense, but there is much to Christmas and the Santa idea, that is, over-consumption and magical thinking, which is not all that innocuous.
I remember the "thrill" of Christmas when I was a kid. I remember it being very unsatisfying.
I wonder if kids having fun is the highest priority here, and how much fun are they really having. I had the kind of fun you have when you're fed a bunch of shit and told something is exciting and fun about something that's really pretty hollow. Santa is hollow. Santa is a lie. Christmas is based on a lie. A stupid, senseless fairy tale.
Fantasy is fine as long as you know it's fantasy. Santa is fine as long as you know it's fantasy. The consumerism and phony lights that go with it are just hollow crap. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/13/2006 07:34:29 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 08:01:25 [Permalink]
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Im with Gorgo on this, I could not lie to my children about something which garners intense emotions, not to mention that I would not celebrate Christmas in my home. I dont plan on having children, so I guess it doesnt really matter for me.
An idea I had was to have a really good present for them when they figure it out, maybe make a sherlock holmes thing out of it and make them investigate. Reward them for Skepticism and not blind belief. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 08:23:01 [Permalink]
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If I can find it, I think I'll dig out A Chris'mas Carole.
That pretty well sums up my feelings on the matter.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 14:45:43 [Permalink]
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I share the discomfort that Gorgo and BigPapaSmurf have about lying to children.
My daughter's about 2 and a half, so this is the first christmas where she really understands the concepts such as they are. However, all things considered, I think it would actually be more traumatic to try and explain the truth. She has Christmas cards to decorate at playgroup, there are Christmas trees at the houses of friends and relatives and all over the shops, and I just don't think she's ready for the "Christian adoption of pagan rituals" speech and all that it entails.
I also don't really want to be responsible for the confusion/stress it may cause her if she's the only one who thinks that Santa is pretend, not because she figured it out, but because Mum & Dad said so. In principle, I understand that I shouldn't have to lie to my kid in order to maintain the lie told to others by their parents. However, it's not that I'm not willing to take the heat for that, I am, but I don't think it's fair to inflict it on one so young. They just don't have the skillset to handle it, in my opinion.
As soon as she's capable of and showing signs of doubting, I'll happily let her in on the truth. I can't remember exactly when I let go of the Christmas myth, but me and a friend had great fun with Easter We actually took photographic evidence of chocolate eggs in a box in my parents bedroom which were strangely identical to those we received from the Easter Bunny a week or so later. However, we still helped maintain the illusion for our younger sisters. Were we emotionally/psychologically damaged by any of this? I seriously doubt it.
All that aside, I got quite a kick out of discovering a bunch of heatshrink tubing my daughter stole from my office/workshop and hung on our christmas tree ("It's got a handle Daddy!")
The one thing I do have in issue with is the whole "Be good or you won't get any presents thing" . Apart from being the wrong way to motivate (in my opinion), I see no point in making threats that won't be delivered on. The fact is, that even if she behaved horribly, and we got her nothing, I'm sure that amongst all the loot they'll get from grandparents, Aunts and Uncles, Santa's lack of contribution would hardly be noticed. Ours are the first grandkids on both sides of the family. Seriously Spoilt? What do you reckon?
Dave the death issue is certainly a tough one. I'm glad I haven't had to deal with that one yet, although I have thought about it. Dealing with the "gone to heaven" explanations coming from everywhere else will certainly be a challenge. Maybe this should be a topic for another thread, perhaps in the SFN child rearing forum... |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 14:50:37 [Permalink]
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If your child had a fear of monsters at night, do you approve or disapprove of the method of a fantasy means of scaring off the monsters? Parents can tell a child that a certain toy is really a monster shield. Is that lie OK? Or do you just tell them there are no monsters even if it doesn't quell their fear?
More on this later. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/13/2006 14:51:07 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 18:26:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
Of course, the Spy Kids are real. In other words, some day soon, you might find yourself explaining that they're real actors in a movie that requires a lot of people with skill and creativity to work together under a film director so they can all make a show that kids are thrilled at or laugh at. And it's all done through the flickering images on a screen which tell a story.
From my recollections of being a kid, the time of day often affected what I was willing to believe.
Daytime--I had no problem understanding Poltergeist was just a movie with paid actors who were faking and that none of it was real.
Nightime--Holy Christ coffins filled with rotting corpses are going to pop up out of my bedroom floor at any second!!!!!!!!!
You know, I had a tree like that. I used to love watching the shadows during a harvest moon. Of course, I watch Poltergiest and it storms like hell that night.......
Peace
Joe |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 18:31:47 [Permalink]
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| I'm not in favor of beheading anyone who comes up with such an unfortunate short-term attempt at solving a problem, but it is reinforcing the idea that monsters exist, and that magical solutions are the way to deal with problems in the short term, and a message that reality is a bad thing in the long term. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 19:15:35 [Permalink]
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Gee, guys, what a load of Scrooges we have!
As my Dad used to warn me, "If you don't believe in Santa, Santa won't believe in you."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 19:27:45 [Permalink]
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| I think kids (and adults) have fun scaring themselves. They're bored, and it occupies their attention and their time. It's part of the "fantasy is good" idea. Let them be scared, turn on a light and walk away. Or, if you have to, once in a while, let them sleep in the parents' room. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 03:11:39 [Permalink]
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I thoroughly enjoyed every one of them, Chip. Thanks much!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 03:15:44 [Permalink]
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Young children, under about 8y/o or so, do not have the cognitive ability to make concrete distinctions between what is real and what is pretend. They can say the words back to you, but they don't really understand yet.
They live in a world dominated by magical thinking.
As long as you let them in on the truth when they begin to suspect it on their own, you are not causing them any harm.
No 5y/o (barring the rare exception) is going to understand you when you try to make a distinction between Santa being a legend and being real. Their biological hardware isn't developed enough to process the difference, yet.
Anyone can go take a developemental psychology course at your local community college, and get the basics of this.
Santa will not harm your children unless you carry the story to far. Santa isn't a gateway to religious indoctrination unless you make it one.
Santa, Frosty, Mr Heat Miser, Jack Frost, etc... are all fun stories. Most of them also have a moral, nothing crazy, just a point to the story. Be generous, help others, don't make fun of the kid with the red nose, and so on.
Think of Santa as a teaching tool, if you think you are lying to your kids. Young children have to be taught differently than older children, and adults. Stories are a very good method for that teaching.
The kids who are young enough to think Santa is real also think Barney, Sponge Bob, and Buzz Lightyear are real. Try to convince one they aren't real, if you think I'm wrong.
I say just have fun with it. Kids have powerfull imaginations, and anything you can do to help them expand that creativity is good.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 03:43:44 [Permalink]
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Buzz Lightyear isn't real....? Oh c'mon! He is too!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 06:39:50 [Permalink]
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I think some of us are talking about different things. If you like Christmas and read your kid stories about Christmas and take him to see Santa at the mall, that's different than telling him that Santa is going to come through your fireplace and leave him a bike.
Fun is possible without lying. Though I think letting your kid watch Barney is tantamount to child abuse, it's not lying to him to have him watch Barney. But if you tell him Barney is coming down your chimney to bring him gifts and Barney doesn't really do that, then that's lying.
I think Christmas itself is a poor idea, and I do not wish to support any aspect of it. If you do, that's your business. If you do, that's not necessarily lying. It may be being duped, but it's not lying. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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