|
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 02/01/2002 : 16:06:12
|
|
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2002 : 17:22:00 [Permalink]
|
The last time I was in a conversation like this, where I was to give the "proof of Self Existence" I leaned over and popped the person I was talking to on the forehead with the heel of my hand in a graphic demonstration of "experience." Since experience requires existence...
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 02/01/2002 17:22:54 |
 |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2002 : 18:42:45 [Permalink]
|
I've been in some extremely painful circumstances when I about half wished I didn't exist. That's about the best proof I can come up with. I realize, of course, that these proofs are revelevent to no one but myself.
I've read that many psychopaths believe that they themselves are the only 'real' person. Everyone else is an illusion.
Kind of a neat question.
f
"They will take away my Darwin Fish only when they pry it from my cold, dead bumper!" |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2002 : 22:32:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I've read that many psychopaths believe that they themselves are the only 'real' person. Everyone else is an illusion.
Kind of a neat question.
f
Funny you should bring this up now because it's just what we were studying in my philosophy class last semester. I too have pondered this question over the years just as much as many of the authors we read about in class. I don't know the 'Real' answer, no pun intended.
Here, what Filthy said about the psychopaths, is much like what Carrol says in 'Alice in Wonderland', it's all a dream. But then as you said, who is the one dreaming the dream that we are in?
All I can do for now is give you some suggested readings. Weigh the arguments and see what seems logical. I have a feeling it is like the Buddhist answer...does it matter? And we may never know.
ps. if you want the list of readings we had in class I'll get the book and post them.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art!
Yes, I am NormaL!!
Carabao forever!!! |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2002 : 22:54:28 [Permalink]
|
"I do not wish to go amongst mad people" said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that" replied the Cheshire Cat. "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
"Why do you say I'm mad" ask Alice?
"You must be," said the Cat "or you wouldn't have come here."
Nineteenth century internet exchange
-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2002 : 02:00:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
"I do not wish to go amongst mad people" said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that" replied the Cheshire Cat. "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
"Why do you say I'm mad" ask Alice?
"You must be," said the Cat "or you wouldn't have come here."
Nineteenth century internet exchange
How odd says Normal and what a coincidence that he just this very moment changed his quote on this web site BEFORE reading this post.  (see below!)
nlm
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
|
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2002 : 16:43:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
I love Douglas Adams' take on this: Some planet somewhere in the universe gathered up all their insane and mentally ill population, stuck them on a starship, and sent them on their way. Guess where they ended up?
------------
Sum Ergo Cogito |
|
|
|
digz
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 17:36:57 [Permalink]
|
Ph,, Ive been chewing on this for a week, and
I've gotten twisted in knots.
I give you this ,,If one cannot observe something that exists nor something that does not exist, are they equal?
Im not academically versed in philoshophy so please forgive any obvious blunders here.
I do see where this might blend into that cause and effect stuff im seeing in other threads. I really enjoy reading this stuff,Im glad I found SFN
|
|
|
|
Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 18:40:16 [Permalink]
|
I have always had fun with thos things.
It is actually frightenig when you reach the point, where you have logically proven that it does not matter wether reality is just a dream.
The only problem here is that we take such self evident statemnts like existence and non-existence are mutually exclusive propositions and build our argument from there. Then we open a textbook on Quantum physics and find out that this might not be as selfevident as we might have thought. That is the point where things really get frightening.
The other direction this thought can go is much more fun. Solipsism - you are all just figments of my imagination and you can't prove me wrong.
|
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 00:10:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Ph,, Ive been chewing on this for a week, and
I've gotten twisted in knots.
I give you this ,,If one cannot observe something that exists nor something that does not exist, are they equal?
I do not think it possible for something to be materially existent and fundamentally unobservable. Hence, I would say yes. Consider this: the Christian God is often said to be immaterial, eternal, unchanging and timeless. This is in fact begging the question because the existence of God has been assumed. Now, if I was to say, "the Christian God exists and is immaterial, eternal, unchanging and timeless," I would relieve the question begging but what am I actually saying? Nothing, because the above sentence is fundamentally incoherent. The characteristics immaterial, eternal, unchanging, timeless are consistent with something that does not exist and cannot be logically consistent with something that exists. Imagine if you had a horse that is white and you said, "this horse that exists is white but this unicorn that does not exist is also white." Silly, eh? Now this only applies to a logical definition of 'exist.' Naturally, one can say that something exists and also has the aforementioned characteristics but this does not make the particular word combination meaningful. I can also say I just drew a squared circle or met a married bachelor but simply because I can put words together does not mean that they mean anything. Does this even remotely begin to answer your question??
quote:
Im not academically versed in philoshophy so please forgive any obvious blunders here.
I do see where this might blend into that cause and effect stuff im seeing in other threads. I really enjoy reading this stuff,Im glad I found SFN
Well, then welcome aboard and stay as long as you like. Honestly, I have no formal training in philosophy and I also tend to despise philosophy for philosophy's sake but applied philosophy is always fun. Keep the questions coming.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.
Edited by - PhDreamer on 02/14/2002 00:11:59 |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 01:28:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Honestly, I have no formal training in philosophy and I also tend to despise philosophy for philosophy's sake but applied philosophy is always fun. Keep the questions coming.
I wouldn't worry about it, not that you are. I have only studied the basics. From what I see, one would have to speicalize in just one school of thought or one philosopher and study them for years to be completely learned in the subject. If you just take a class or two and read passages from the various books you find every 'so called' philosopher contradicting every other one.
An average (thinking) person might just as well give his own opinions without 'formal training', it's all only theory and talk anyway. You think they know more then you?!
I like to change my occupation on my IRS form from time to time. For a while I WAS putting Philosopher on it. No joke!
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 06:14:04 [Permalink]
|
I think, therefor I am, I think.
This year, I'll list my occupation as, "Guppy Wrangler." I work part time at a tropical fish farm..
f
A hundred years before the advent of Hitler, the German-Jewish poet, Heinrich Heine, had declared: "Wherever books are burned, human beings are destined to be burned too."
|
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 06:55:47 [Permalink]
|
I am somewhat friendly with a young lady at a company we deal with in California. She has decided to call me a philosophist. Go ahead, look it up.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.
Edited by - phdreamer on 02/14/2002 06:56:04 |
|
|
|
Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2002 : 14:57:35 [Permalink]
|
Hey, PHDreamer.
Ya, it was me that you were talking with about this. So in the mean time, I've started reading this book "Buddhism withouth Beliefs", and it provided me with an acceptable answer.
As background, Buddha never claimed to know anything about an afterlife, or reincarnation. He was raised in a time when it was in fashion to believe in reincarnation, so he kind of tended that way, but did indicate he didn't know.
So this question was asked, and he said it doesn't really matter if you exist or don't exist or will be reincarnated or will cease to exist. You must life the best life you know how to.
So based on all available evidence, it appears that we do exist, but that doesn't preclude the search for further evidence one way or another.
Just because we're hypnotized, that don't mean we can't dance. - Tonio K. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2002 : 05:05:33 [Permalink]
|
Plese forgive my lack of creativity on this issue, but long ago I heard Plato's take on this issue, (was it "I think I am. Therefore, I am), and said softly to myself, "Cool" as I went on my merry way. I never found the reason to question my own existence. That always seemed a bit counter-productive and irrational. Afterall, if I didn't exist, how could I possibly consider the issue?
quote:
the Christian God is often said to be immaterial, eternal, unchanging and timeless.
I heard that said, but let's face facts, why would an immaterial god be thankfull to King David for building God's first house. Didn't God express gratitude to David for building His house, (the temple), and how wonderful it was since God had always dwelled in a tent. (2Samuel 7:5&6)
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
|
|
|
seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2002 : 09:58:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The other direction this thought can go is much more fun. Solipsism - you are all just figments of my imagination and you can't prove me wrong.
Lars, there is a way we have a fight to death. The point is that if you win I cannot prove you wrong, if I win you were wrong but as you have lost your life there is no interest anymore. This is the problem with Descart line of thinking it is not really "productive" for relationship.
The only known thing with Descart is "I cannot doubt I am doubting". Which is quite limiting to rebuilt a livable world.
Seb |
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
