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 Did Jesus Really Exist? (Part 2)
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2002 :  20:32:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
quote:
You know why we don't have any copies, don't you?
The Christians destroyed them because they were Pagan blasphemy.
Look up Theodosius the Great, or St Cyril of Alexandria. Look up the murder of Hypatia. All classical wisdom was destroyed for the glory of Christ.
Do you know how we got it back, do you know who saved it for us through our dark ages? The Moslems saved it. Not the Christians, the Moslems.


I hate to keep beating a dead horse but, for all of you who think Slater is "without error" check out his above rash statement compared to just what two secular historians have to say on the same subject:
quote:
A century before Augustine had argued that a training in the classics... WAS ESSENTIAL FOR ANY CHRISTIAN[emph. mine].Perhaps the most distingushed of Theodorics civil servants ,Cassiodorus,agreed.Cassiodorus(490-585AD) drew on Greek models for his argument that the best traning for higher studies in Christian Theology in the seven liberal arts grammar,logic,...He collected manuscripts both Christian and Pagan and encouraged the monks to copy them ...It was partly thanks to Cassiodorus that an EDUCATION PAGAN CLASSICAL TEXTS WAS ENSHRINED AS PART OF THE CHURCH'S OWN EDUCATION SYSTEM at a time when Secular schooling was in decline....Isidore bishop of Seville...his contribution to scholarship was great...He was a determined advocate of traditional Classical education...insisting that it was better for christians that they read the pagan authors ...Like Cassiodorus in Italy,he set in hand THE COPYING OF MANUSCRIPTS,AND CLASSICAL LEARNING WAS PRESERVED [emph.mine]. CHARLES FREEMAN, EGYPT,GREECE,AND ROME , OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS,1996 (pps 529-531)
quote:
Before Islam,the post-classical world of Greece and Rome as,transmuted by Christianity ,HAD REMAINED ESSENTIALLY INTACT.AFTER ISLAM IT WAS GONE FOREVER ...the monasteries increasingly served as OASIS OF CLASSICAL LEARNING IN THE BARBARIAN DESERT...The conjunction Christian teaching with an appreciation of Greek philosophy and Latin authors had long been accpted in the east especially in Alexandria(485-580AD)...Cassiodorus advocated a system of education where sacred and profane subjects were seen as complementary;and he started a collection of ancient documents. NORMAN DAVIES, EUROPE A HISTORY,HarperPernnial,A Divsion of Harper Collins Publishers,(pps 257-266)
I could qoute more but it would be overkill.Once again I have demonstrated that Slater's views are realmyths.



Edited by - darwin alogos on 09/01/2002 20:39:27
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2002 :  21:36:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
So you are saying that there were no "dark ages." The classics were never destroyed. We never regained them from Islam. There was no renaissance.

I'd love to hear if you think the holocaust happened or not.

And of course you have yet to explain what happened to all the early (pre 325CE) Xian documents. If the classics were preserved lovingly by the Holy Roman Church why didn't they save their own originals.

-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860

Edited by - slater on 09/01/2002 21:44:58
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular

USA
532 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2002 :  21:48:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwin alogos a Private Message
quote:
Why did you have to give me quotes from "experts" from 30, 50 and 110 years ago? Surely quotes from current day experts would have been easier to find than one from the century before last. Since science is self correcting it seems suspicious behavior.
And why call him Sir William Ramsey when he is Pastor William Ramsey?


Ok you arrogant pompous fool heres a current quote from a secular historian concering the works of NT that SIR WILLIAM RAMSAY wrote on ,namely,Luke and Acts:
quote:
Luke,an educated Greek, he was writing within the historical traditions,esatblished by Thucydides and have been present at some the events he records....he shows a DETAILED KNOWLEDGE OF ROMAN WORLD.His account of Paul's shipwreck onthe way to Rome, for instance,is a VALUABLE PIECE OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE IN ITS OWN RIGHT....The doings of Paul and the early Christians are WELL DOCUMENTED IN THE ACTS OF THE APOSTELS,composed probably in the 60'sAD,as a sequel to his gospel Luke. CHARLES FREEMAN, EGYPT,GREECE,AND ROME,OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS,1996 (pps487-488)
And the reason he's called "SIR"is because he was knighted you jackass!
quote:
For the greater part of his life, Sir William Ramsay was Professor of Humanites at the University of Aberdeen,Scotland.He carried on extensive archaeological research in Asiatic Turkey. [By his own addmission he was raised in the deep skepticism of his day concerning the historical integrity of the NT, particularly The Book of Acts]"I began with a mind unfavorable to it[Acts],for the ingenuity and apparent completeness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me....I found myself often brought in contact with the book of Acts as an authority for topography,antiquities,and society of Asian Minor.It was gradually borne in upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvellous truth." SIR WILLIAM RAMSAY,ST PAUL the traveller and the Roman Citizen,BAKER BOOK HOUSE,Grand Rapids,Mich.(p.8)
Why quote him Slater? I'll tell you why because he at least,unlike you, got off his ass and did some serious research before making pronoucements on the reliability of the NT.

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2002 :  22:55:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
8/22
quote:
how many original classical documents do we possess? NONE! No Plato,Herodutus,Homer,or even your beloved Apollonius.Do classical scholars dispair over this fact? HELL NO!


quote:
Like Cassiodorus in Italy,he set in hand THE COPYING OF MANUSCRIPTS,AND CLASSICAL LEARNING WAS PRESERVED



Here shitforbrains pick a stand and stay with it.
Either the classics were perserved by the Catholic Church or they weren't.
The Reverend Bill Ramsey never came up with one piece of historic evidence about the gospel that wasn't fudged. He was nothing but a hack Christian writer who churned out book after book taking hear say for history. The con artist took a vacation in Turkey..big deal. We've already gone over Paul's conversion being lifted from a well known play from hundreds of years before Acts was written. Acts is so believable...if you're a half-wit. I like Andrew and the cannibal king and Matthew and the eunuchs dragon. Maybe you haven't read Acts. Because even you aren't stupid enough to fall for that shit.
Well, maybe you are stupid enough.


-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1266 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2002 :  07:34:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
I am locking this thread for two reasons: it has gotten too long, and tempers are flaring a little too hot.

If anyone has something productive to contribute and wants to continue the discussion, please start a new thread.

-me.
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