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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2002 : 10:13:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
First of all, the Romans had to deal with Jesus; the other holy men of the time didn't do the phenomenal things that Jesus was recorded as doing; and it was recorded that the Romans did take note.
Here's the whole problem with your idea.
The Romans didn't take note. Nor the Jews, nor anyone else in the area. No one noticed him, any of his miracles, or noticed any of his followers.
The earliest physical record we have dates from two hundred and ninety five years after his supposed death.
We do have plenty of records on other Jewish Messiahs who lived at the time but no record of Jesus at all. We don't even have records of Paul.
What we do have are the earlier mythologies of Mythra and Dionysus and they are a match to the Jesus story.
The first century CE Romans didn't have to deal with Jesus. There was no Jesus for them to deal with.
I make Constantine the Great out to be the prime suspect (Lars has reasonable doubts on my claim) for having concocted the Jesus story because he had motive and opportunity. That and all the earliest physical evidence comes from his people and none from before. It may not prove him guilty but it does make him a suspect.
However-even if he were only an accessory after the fact -someone invented this story, because we have all the pieces that they made it from in earlier religions. Including the name Christian, which in the first-third centuries did not apply to Jesus' followers but to a Pagan cult of Christna (spelled Krishna only since the 1800's)
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 10:32:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Only someone truly stupid (--I'm not name-calling: I mean the word most literally--) would ignore something or someone who could, at a whim, destroy you--merely, say, by causing a battle to go in a different direction, with different results. "Hmmm.", says the soldier or sailor. "What's to hurt in a small prayer--just in case."
This is such blatant bull shit that I can't believe you have the nerve to spout it.
I've been in combat myself and there is nothing more convincing of the fact that there is no god than seeing one of your friends blown neatly into two pieces.
This is an insult to all the brave non-theist soldiers, sailors and airmen. An obvious lie told merely to promote your ridiculous superstition. Shame on you.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 10:57:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
[from Computer Org] ... there are no WorldWide religions founded on Jupiter, Ra, or Thor which still exist. Nor did any of those religions last for anything like 2,000 years.
Mitra/Mithra originated with the Mitanni in the 2nd century BCE and was worshipped within the Roman Empire as Mithaism through the end of the 4th century CE.
quote:
[from Computer Org] Again, my primary evidence that Jesus existed and taught [roughly] as described in the four Gospels is both indirect and [nearly] incontrovertible: There are, today, massive numbers of people who read the transcripts of what Jesus had to say some 2,000 years ago.
I respectfully submit that there are precisely zero "people who read the transcripts of what Jesus had to say some 2,000 years ago".
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 06/03/2002 11:02:44 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 11:23:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Mitra/Mithra originated with the Mitanni in the 2nd century BCE
Actually Reasonable, Mitra was one of the Vedic gods (he became Mithra in Persia) and you are correct about his earliest mention being with the Mitanni. It was on a treaty that they signed with the neighboring Hittites. But the dates are off by quite a bit. The Mitanni kingdom ( where Kurdistan is today) dates from c.1500-c.1250 BCE. The date given to the treaty is around 1400 BCE.
Mithraism only came into it's own as an off shoot of Zoroastrianism between 1000 and 900 BCE according to Schaeder when Mithra went from being a god into being the son of god (Ahura Mazda).
By the second century BCE his cult had already spread through out Europe (see Campbell Occidental Mythology)
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 12:14:15 [Permalink]
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Thanks. I was under the impression that there may have been a common origin to elements of the Vedic and Mitanni language and culture. See, for example, http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/indo/mitanni.html and http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/
In any event, with reference to the 2000 history boasted by Computer Org, I'm sure we both agree that today's Christianity differs a good deal from the heterogenous mess that existed during its first 4 centuries, while it's surprizing longevity was greatly facilitated by the 'dark ages'.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 12:24:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Secondly, and most importantly, the Romans didn't have the benefit of the brand of atheism available to (and widely used by) today's law-enforcers (--from cop-on-the-beat to the U.S. Supreme Court). Atheism is a very convenient foundation when one wants to be unaccountable to any "higher authority".
C.O., I would like to correct your inference that modern Executive and Judicial branches of gov't are atheistic. To begin with, I seriously doubt that the actual number of police officers and judges are any less religious than the rest of the general population, (with a glance at our US Cheif Executive, and our US Cheif Justice one may arrive at exactly the opposite conclusion).
Secondly, the US gov't is not atheistic, but religion neutral by intent. Try reading the US Constitution, or the writings of the US Founding Fathers.
Finally, the accounting to a 'higher authority' in a supernatural sense is best kept to the beliefs of the individual. However, I would like to know of just one prominent and lasting gov't that allowed theology to heavily influence policy, and that people were not killed and persecuted for their differing opinions.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 13:04:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
However, I would like to know of just one prominent and lasting gov't that allowed theology to heavily influence policy, and that people were not killed and persecuted for their differing opinions.
I of course agree with you Tim, but If one wanted to play devil's advocat here on could ask for the name of one prominent and lasting government, where people were not persecuted at one point.
Edited by - Lars_H on 06/03/2002 13:06:40 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 13:53:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
I was under the impression that there may have been a common origin to elements of the Vedic and Mitanni language and culture.
Yes, very much so. But it spread even further than the Mitannis (Shaken not stirred by Mitra) So that you find that the gods Krishna, Heracles and Mithra (and hell you could count Jesus in here too) are almost identical.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 14:35:48 [Permalink]
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My question, though, is this: Does the Iranian Mitra/Mithra/Mithras derive from the Vedas or, conversely, are the two traditions more or less parallel with a common origin? I honestly don't know the answer to this.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 14:50:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
I make Constantine the Great out to be the prime suspect (Lars has reasonable doubts on my claim) for having concocted the Jesus story because he had motive and opportunity. That and all the earliest physical evidence comes from his people and none from before. It may not prove him guilty but it does make him a suspect.
However-even if he were only an accessory after the fact -someone invented this story, because we have all the pieces that they made it from in earlier religions. Including the name Christian, which in the first-third centuries did not apply to Jesus' followers but to a Pagan cult of Christna (spelled Krishna only since the 1800's)
If you consider how groups and individuals constantly slap a new name on an old belief and try to pass it off something new as was done with a lot of the New Age beliefs you can easily see how Constantine might have done this very thing himself. I do not doubt that there were some people back then that had some marketing savvy. People have done this sort of repackaging for millenia. Christianity shows many, many signs of this same repackaging. Too many to simply toss out without a thought.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 14:58:49 [Permalink]
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The Persian Mithra comes a good deal after Vedas and they change Mitra's personality from a Hermes sort of messenger/angel and sometimes hero into a hero/saviour. The myth takes on much more of an agrarian turning into warrior context than it originally had. Probably shows that the culture was becoming more segmented that it originally was.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:16:59 [Permalink]
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> Your analogy is good except that there are
> no WorldWide religions founded on Jupiter,
> Ra, or Thor which still exist. Nor did any
> of those religions last for anything like
> 2,000 years. Your analogy fails. A similar
> attempt based on Hindu gods would also
> fail, albeit for different reasons.
Aren't ad hoc hypotheses great?
Anyway, Ra was worshipped for more than two thousand five hundred years in Egypt. The hieroglyph for Ra's name can be seen in the name of the pharaoh Djedefra, who lived around 2500 BCE. Ra, during the Greek and Roman times, was identified with the Greek god Helios.
Besides, you originally said, "I am truly skeptical that a world-wide religion could be founded on someone who didn't exist." You said absolutely nothing about the length of time a deity was worshipped. You've introduced a red herring into this discussion. Of course you think that Slater's analogy fails! You decided to add an extra, unrelated component after Slater responded to you!
Does the length of time that a deity is worshipped say anything about the truth of that deity's existence?
Edited by - antie on 06/03/2002 17:19:48 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:57:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Persian Mithra comes a good deal after Vedas and they change Mitra's personality from a Hermes sort of messenger/angel and sometimes hero into a hero/saviour. The myth takes on much more of an agrarian turning into warrior context than it originally had. Probably shows that the culture was becoming more segmented that it originally was.
[emphasis added - RD]
quote:
From "Mithras: Mysteries and initiation rediscovered" by D. Jason Cooper (1996, Samuel Weiser, Inc., York Beach, Maine. $12.95). Pages 1-8:
When the Aryan tribes swept down from the Russian steppes they brought their gods with them. Some time between 2000 and 1500 B.C.E., these tribes entered India and Iran, bringing with them one particular deity. These people, the Mitanni, gave us the first written reference to Mitra in a treaty between themselves and the Hittites. Signed about 1375 B.C.E., the treaty calls on divine witnesses to pledge its terms. The Hittites called on the sun go. The Mitanni called on Mitra.
Mitra had been worshipped by the Iranians for centuries when Zarathustra (we call him Zoroaster, the Greek version of his name) founded the first revealed religion. Zarathustra announced the primacy of Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, who was served by the Amentas Spenta, or bounteous immortals. Among these was Mithra, whom Ahura Mazda declared to be "as worthy of worship as myself." Thus Zarathustrian reform did not replace Mithra in the Iranian Pantheon. It merely changed his role.
< ... >
As the Aryan tribes swept south, they split into two major branches, the Indian in the east and the Iranis in the west. Both Worshipped the god of the contract in similar ways. Like the Indians, the Iranis sacrificed cattle to Mithra. They invoked him to preserve the sanctity of the contract. They associated him with fire. And like both Indian and Roman worshippers, the Iranis concluded contracts before fires so that they might be made in the presence of Mithra. Like Mitra, Mithra saw all things. The Avestan Yast (hymn) dedicated to him describes him as having a thousand ears, ten thousand eyes, and as never sleeping. And like Mitra, Mithra has a partner, Apam Nepat, whose name means Grandson of Waters. (Note that the same elemental connection of fire and water is maintained as in the Indian tradition.)
[emphasis added; see http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/ - RD]
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 18:26:22 [Permalink]
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So if Mitra is coming from the Aryan tribes then Mitra and Mithra are not sequencial but comtemporaneous. It would also imply that he was a hell of a lot older than I thought.
Cool!
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 18:41:17 [Permalink]
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Now that is what I call an awesome recycling job.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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