Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Creation/Evolution
 NY Times Editorial on Ohio ID
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

dhuxley
New Member

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  09:06:38  Show Profile  Visit dhuxley's Homepage Send dhuxley a Private Message
From this NY Times Article



March 17, 2002

Darwinian Struggle in Ohio

Creationists have gotten a lot of bad publicity since the Scopes trial brought the fight over teaching evolution into sharp relief in 1925. Nearly two years ago, Kansas voters threw out conservative members of the state Board of Education who had pushed through new science standards that eliminated biological evolution as an explanation of the emergence of one species from another. The nation has, over the years, come to wide agreement that public school science classes should teach science, not religion. But creationists have not given up. Now in Ohio, another batch of conservative board members is taking a different approach -- one that would leave evolution in the curriculum but insert the teaching of alternative explanations as well, particularly a theory known as "intelligent design."

Ohio's struggle over evolution grew out of a valuable attempt to develop new standards for what students need to learn from kindergarten through 12th grade. Groups of educators, scientists and others drafted science standards that reflected evolution's central place in biology. But when the standards came before the curriculum subcommittee of the state board, several members urged a rewrite that would present evolution as "an assumption" and include intelligent design as an alternative scientific explanation. By one newspaper's count, almost a third of the entire board wants Ohio students exposed to the intelligent-design idea.

To sidestep court decisions against teaching creationism in the public schools, adherents of intelligent design carefully shun any mention of God in their proposals. They simply argue that humans, animals and plants are far too diverse and complex to be explained by evolution and natural selection, so there must have been an intelligent designer behind it all. Whether that designer is God, an advanced civilization from another world or some other creative force is not specified.

But that is a disingenuous attempt to mask the true goal here, which many adherents acknowledge is to open the students' minds to the possibility of a divine creator, rather than leaving them with the soulless processes of evolution. Advocates of intelligent design claim that it is a scientific theory, not a religious concept, but they do not publish in the standard scientific literature and their work is not recognized by the leading scientific organizations.

Teaching students the mysteries of the universe letting them wrap their minds around unresolved questions is a good way to get them interested in science. But no theory that answers those questions by invoking the supernatural deserves a place in a public school science curriculum.

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  11:59:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
They simply argue that humans, animals and plants are far too diverse and complex to be explained by evolution and natural selection, so there must have been an intelligent designer behind it all. Whether that designer is God, an advanced civilization from another world or some other creative force is not specified.


quote:
Advocates of intelligent design claim that it is a scientific theory, not a religious concept, but they do not publish in the standard scientific literature and their work is not recognized by the leading scientific organizations.


So, where is the theory in all of this? If they feel that life is irreducibly complex, it seems to me that the burden is on them to test that hypothesis in order for it to be anything more then speculative. If every speculation about the nature of life was forced into the science classroom, there would be no distinction between metaphysics and science. At the very least, if they think they are on to something, it's time for them to offer falsifiable (in the realm of what can be tested) and repeatable evidence to support their hypothesis. Until they do that, intelligent design fails, by every measure we use, to demonstrate that it is a science at all.

To put it another way, screw them...

The Evil Skeptic

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Go to Top of Page

James
SFN Regular

USA
754 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  12:56:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send James a Yahoo! Message Send James a Private Message
quote:
They simply argue that humans, animals and plants are far too diverse and complex to be explained by evolution and natural selection, so there must have been an intelligent designer behind it all.


Here's an arguement I use on other boards when told that life is too complex to have happened "accidentely": Given enough time, shit happens.

quote:
To put it another way, screw them...


LOL

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha
Go to Top of Page

Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend

417 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  13:49:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Donnie B. a Private Message
The whole Intelligent Design position is an Argument from Incredulity: "I can't imagine how evolution could have produced such-and-such; therefore, some unspecified intelligent agent must have produced it deliberately."

I just want to slap them. "Well, if you can't figure it out, you dimwit, either go out and do some actual science and figure it out, or find a job you're more suited to!"


-- Donnie B.

Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!"
Go to Top of Page

@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  14:27:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
The sad thing is, those people will never listen because they are either incapable of understanding or just unwilling to do the work.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Go to Top of Page

Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  17:07:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
quote:

The whole Intelligent Design position is an Argument from Incredulity: "I can't imagine how evolution could have produced such-and-such; therefore, some unspecified intelligent agent must have produced it deliberately."

I just want to slap them. "Well, if you can't figure it out, you dimwit, either go out and do some actual science and figure it out, or find a job you're more suited to!"


-- Donnie B.

Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!"



Well, it is not so much an "I can't figure it out" and more of an "I don't want to figure it, you should not try to either, everyone who already has is a liar and I don't want to listen to you explaining it to me either."

But I have to agree with them when I look at nature I often find stuff that certainly looks designed. If I were an sadistic bastard I could not have come up with a more horrible way to implement such perversities.

Go to Top of Page

Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend

417 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2002 :  19:00:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Donnie B. a Private Message
Careful there, Lars. After all, the ID people are careful not to say who their Designer is. It could be God, or aliens, or a vast supercomputer. Or... Satan, in the case of the naughty bits.

Let's not give them any more ammunition, eh?


-- Donnie B.

Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!"
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.09 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000