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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2002 : 03:05:02 [Permalink]
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Again, you're not paying attention. Yes, I think all war is a crime against humanity. However, that's not what I've been saying. If one has no ethics about how one goes about it, one cannot expect to have any respect in the world. Okay, let's assume that war is the best way to deal with things. Then is it okay for Iraq to invade Kuwait? If not, why not? Because they didn't go through certain channels to deal with their grievances? Is it okay for the U.S. to invade Iraq or Panama? Sure. Why? Because it's the U.S. You can't have it both ways. The U.S. does not have to have any ethics, yet it expects others to. This is what I'm talking about.
Add the sanctions and the near carpet bombing and you can't tell me that there's anything reasonable about it. You are not perfectly willing to accept that.
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I am perfectly willing to look at any US act and, if I think it's a crime I will concede that it's a crime. But every act of war is not a crime to me. Carpet bombing a city may or not be a crime. It would depend on the circumstances as many things do. Deliberately bombing a hospital would not be a crime if there was a military HQ under it. I am not claiming there is or was one. I am just saying that bombing a hospital is not necessarily a crime. If a government puts a military HQ under a hospital then they are the criminals. Not the people that might find it necessary to bomb it.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 08:13:39 [Permalink]
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Iraq had no grievance with Kuwait. Saddam just wanted the oil. How hard is that to figure out? The US did try other means to remove Noriega. Too bad the attempts didn't meet your expectations. They met mine.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 09:01:10 [Permalink]
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So, the U.S. and Israel are the only ones in the world with pure motives. Saddam, Qaddafi, Arafat, they're all spawns of Satan whose followers are hypnotized by evil spells.
Gotcha.
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Iraq had no grievance with Kuwait. Saddam just wanted the oil. How hard is that to figure out? The US did try other means to remove Noriega. Too bad the attempts didn't meet your expectations. They met mine.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 10:39:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, the U.S. and Israel are the only ones in the world with pure motives. Saddam, Qaddafi, Arafat, they're all spawns of Satan whose followers are hypnotized by evil spells.
And what magic hat did you pull that from?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 10:59:57 [Permalink]
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The Amazing @tomic hat. That's what you're tryin' to feed me (with a little mustard and relish on top).
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And what magic hat did you pull that from?
@tomic
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 11:14:05 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, you are utterly unfair. Most folks here are willing to accept some wroongdoing by the US and its allies. Unlike you, we need more than heresay and rumor to convict.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 11:32:02 [Permalink]
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Again, that's fine. You want to convict someone take them to court. Wait a minute, the U.S. doesn't allow anyone to create a court. Who is going to investigate and prosecute, Atomic? You are willing to accept "some wrongdoing?" Why? Why the U.S. and its allies and no one else?
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Gorgo, you are utterly unfair. Most folks here are willing to accept some wroongdoing by the US and its allies. Unlike you, we need more than heresay and rumor to convict.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2002 : 23:46:03 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, you are utterly unfair.
Well, life is probably easier that way.
[irony]
1. The US is bad
1b. Dubya is very very bad
2. If not see 1.
[/irony] 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2002 : 02:58:17 [Permalink]
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[irony]
That was an intelligent, well-informed remark that shows that you've tried to understand both sides and make a decision based on reason.
[/irony]
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[irony]
1. The US is bad
1b. Dubya is very very bad
2. If not see 1.
[/irony]
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2002 : 21:16:16 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I think I understand where you're coming from, and can see why you say what you do. You aim for the highest good, which is admirable.
I, too, wish the world was perfect. Things would be so much easier.
But it's not. We have to make the best of the situation, which at this time is American style democracy. America gets involved to make money and look good doing it.
And, to this end, they fight totalitarianism and other repressive regimes in order to look good, and thus increase the marketablity of consumer goods, the bottom line, and trickling down to political contributions.
The byproduct of America trying to increase its bottom line is that dictatorial and restrictive regimes fall, and people get more freedom of choice and democracy.
I prefer freedom of choice and democracy to dictatorships of whatever form.
So, Gorgo, you're right that money and power make the rules. And, in my opinion, Americas rules do more good than harm.
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2002 : 03:54:00 [Permalink]
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I don't think the U.S. could be accused of promoting democracy anywhere.
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Gorgo, I think I understand where you're coming from, and can see why you say what you do. You aim for the highest good, which is admirable.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2002 : 07:13:56 [Permalink]
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Tim> The sentence you quoted was taken a little out of context, there. I'm not arguing that the strongest rule, but asking if that is a good thing or not?
Atomic> May I ask, why you're not answering my questions? According to UNICEF the ten-year long boycott has each year cost 60.000 Iraqi children their lives. In 1995 Madeleine Albright declared that “it's worth the price.”
I can see from your discussion with Gorgo, that you find it impossible to conceive of the idea, that during a war, non-military targets will be hit on purpose. What is a military target? A bridge? Both enemy forces and civilians cross the bridge. Is that a military target? You want to get to the infra-structure of the country.
“I'm just telling you how it is. Plain and simple.” Written after “According to this the US answers to no one.”
This is in reply to Gorgo's claims, that the US government and military committed crimes against the Iraqi people. It sounds, although i doubt it's your intention, as if you mean, that since the US answers to no-one, then there is no crime.
“Carpet bombing a city may or not be a crime.” How on Earth can it not be a crime? As in a warcrime? How does that differ from a mass-execution?
“Iraq had no grievance with Kuwait. Saddam just wanted the oil. How hard is that to figure out? The US did try other means to remove Noriega.”
What gives the US the right to remove the leader of another country? You think it's okay that CIA in 1973 (when Bush Sr. was in charge of the CIA) staged a military coup in chile, which killed Allende and thousands of others?
Badger> “The byproduct of America trying to increase its bottom line is that dictatorial and restrictive regimes fall, and people get more freedom of choice and democracy.”
If a country tries to remove elected leaders and stage wars at its convenience how is that different from totalitarianism? What was that with the coup in Venezuela?
During the war in Kosovo the alliance bombed infrastructures, a TV-Station, civilian factories, the Chinese embassy and even a refugee convoy. During the Vietnam war the US military killed three million Vietnamese, most of them civilians. When the war was over 70% of all structures in North-Vietnam were in ruins and 10 million hectares of land ruined by chemical warfare. The regime did not fall. Colin Powell helped cover up the massacre of My Lai, were American troops masscared 400 Vietnamese villagers, mostly old people and children. Where is the freedom of choice and democracy? (The same Powell who led the 1989 invasion of Panama, that cost several thousand civilians their lives.)
After the war against Iraq the Ba'at party did not loose power. Are the new leaders in Afghanistan friendly democratic proponents of free speech?
You think it's freedom and democracy to transmit live from Somalia on TV, when the US invaded the country?
Democracy? The US government is opposed to a permanent international tribunal on warcrimes.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2002 : 07:45:58 [Permalink]
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Omega, it's my opinion that that what is brought to a country as a result of US intervention benefits that country more than the status quo would have been.
I'm not going to apologize for obvious screw ups, some of which you've identified, as I understand that in politics there is corruption and ulterior motives that can drive the operations.
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2002 : 08:39:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
I can see from your discussion with Gorgo, that you find it impossible to conceive of the idea, that during a war, non-military targets will be hit on purpose. What is a military target? A bridge? Both enemy forces and civilians cross the bridge. Is that a military target? You want to get to the infra-structure of the country.
Did you ever consider that a bridge can be used to transport military supplies and vehicles? If civilians also use these that's unfortunate. War is unfortunate.
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This is in reply to Gorgo's claims, that the US government and military committed crimes against the Iraqi people. It sounds, although i doubt it's your intention, as if you mean, that since the US answers to no-one, then there is no crime.
“Carpet bombing a city may or not be a crime.” How on Earth can it not be a crime? As in a warcrime? How does that differ from a mass-execution?
This response of mine was an answer to Gorgo's neverending claim about international law. There truly is none. I myself was quite displeased by the US pulling out of this. I merely presented it was a fact. Carpet bombing is unfortunate but it's called war. The US did not go in and carpet bomb residential neighborhoods but if there were military targets hiding in them then bombing those neighborhoods might be justified. What exactly do you expect in a war? A few harsh words between friends while everyone eats tea cakes?
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What gives the US the right to remove the leader of another country? You think it's okay that CIA in 1973 (when Bush Sr. was in charge of the CIA) staged a military coup in chile, which killed Allende and thousands of others?
The US has the right, technically, because no one is there to stop it. I thought what the US did in Chile was horrible but Noriega was not much of a leader. Should we never have pushed the Nazis back in WWII because Hitler was the leader of all Europe? I try to be a litt;e bit selective in my condemnation of US policy. Sometimes the US has done bad but there are cases, such as the invasion of Panama, where the US recutified a past wrong. Noriega was a past US screw up that was finally fixed. One way to look at it is that the US fixed a problem it had caused.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2002 : 09:28:55 [Permalink]
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That's what we're taught to believe, that everything the U.S. does is to further "freedom," "democracy," and goodness. When the result is less than that it's because some demon foiled them or it's because the U.S. is just big and clumsy, or it's because of isolated bits of corruption. The enemy, on the other hand, is always "evil" and their faults are never the result of the same causes as that of the U.S.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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