|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2001 : 07:45:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Sorry about quoting my own statements on the last post there. I'll get the hang of this in a year or so.
I'm hardly in a position to criticize someone for having trouble with the posting intricacies here. No problem; I've followed it all so far.
quote:
When the inspectors were withdrawn, there were no weapons of mass destruction.
More accurately: there were no weapons of mass destruction found. Possibly because there aren't there and don't exist. Possibly because they were hidden during the stonewalling.
quote:
I understood that you were explaining your point to Trish. So was I.
Sorry about misreading your post. Got it.
quote:
Now I am responding to your post. You and others, are very quick to dismiss the crimes of the U.S. and accept their spin on the matter, but very quick to indict Saddam Hussein. Some of this is propaganda. Some of this is true. Saddam Hussein is one rotten bastard. George Bush is one rotten bastard. So which is worse?
On the contrary, the western democracies in general and the U.S. in particular are among the first to criticize themselves for perceived and actual acts of atrocity/murder/aggression/oppression/unfairness/environmental-destructiveness/et al. And while I don't pretend to be unbiased, my background (training and experience) are such that I accept almost nothing at face value, including the 'spin' of my own government, of which there is plenty (meaning both 'spin' and 'government'). I recognize that it is possible that I am wrong; you simply haven't convinced me.
And comparing Bush to Hussein does not in the slightest help your case. If you are at all serious in that regard, then I have to say you're losing credibility in my eyes; and to this point, you have quite a bit of it, even though I disagree with you.
You may legitimately argue (though I would disagree on this, too) that Bush is a simple profiteer, a politician unconcerned with environmental consequences, a business tool with little concern for the lower economic classes, and other unflattering things. But if you are saying that he is on a par with Hussein whose record of oppression, cruelty, aggression, and atrocity puts him at the top of the major leagues, then you've missed the boat.
quote:
Again, this requires too much of me to answer properly. Dinars can buy labor. Dinars can buy concrete. Smuggled money buys marble, etc., which is "Saddam's" way of thumbing his nose at the U.S. and making himself a big man. He's an asshole. Now. Do you want the same restrictions put on the U.S.? Should they have no marble until all their children are fed?
If we invade Canada, burn Quebec, rape the women of Ontario, build secret chemical weapons plants, lob Scuds at Mexico City when they're not bothering us, and threaten to destroy the Lying Pigs in Paris, then yes. Until then, the analogy doesn't hold.
quote:
I don't know what the Iraqi version is. That's rarely presented in the corporate media. I only know the version presented to me by people like Denis Halliday, Hans Von Sponeck and others like Kathy Kelley and Ramsey Clark who have been there and studied the situation
Clark I already knew fairly well. Halliday a little. The others by name. Can't promise to read them soon, but I'll put them on the list. Add Trish's sources to your list, and we'll call it even up.
My kids still love me. |
 |
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 08:39:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Sorry about quoting my own statements on the last post there. I'll get the hang of this in a year or so.
There's both a preview button and an edit post button. If you post something and then review it and see that you've made a mistake, you can edit it to correct it. Along the top of the post are a few buttons. Just hold your mouse pointer over them for a couple of seconds, and their function will be displayed.
Editing is usefull in going back and adding [ quote ] to the beginning of a quote, or [ /quote ] to close out a quote (without the spaces) when you see that your formatting is messed up.
------------
Gambatte kudasai! |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 09:05:15 [Permalink]
|
Thanks for your help. I am at work, so some of this is done in a hurry, and if things freeze up... blah blah blah. I do appreciate the help. You told me some things I didn't know.
quote:
Editing is usefull
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 09:07:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Thanks for your help.
No problem. 
------------
Gambatte kudasai! |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 11:23:06 [Permalink]
|
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer215/215_bennis.html
For those who want to do more reading.
I did read some of Trish's web site. Trish found something in A web site that said something about Iraq "suspending" sanctions in 8/98 and she thought that was proof that Iraq had "kicked out" the inspectors in December. It is important to keep up with what the U.N. has to say, but there is even a diversity of opinion within the U.N. U.N. agencies (I think UNICEF and F.A.O.) have said in no uncertain terms that the sanctions are the cause of the death of at least a half a million children. That was in 1996. Some think a conservative estimate is 2 million people. Saddam Hussein is responsible for a lot, but the Bush/Clinton regimes are responsible for all of those deaths. That is what qualifies me to make comparisons. Certainly former employees like Denis Halliday and Hans Von Sponeck and Richard Butler all agree that the sanctions have to at least be changed radically. That possibility is not likely for a long time.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 11:47:12 [Permalink]
|
Sadddam has found resources to rebuild his military just fine. He could have diverted some of that to medicine and food. It's not like Iraq is not truly cut off from the rest of the world. You look at these actual statistics then multiply them by 4 and place the blame anywhere but where it should be placed. How come you do that?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 12:55:26 [Permalink]
|
Well, that's quite a statement. Show me some figures and some documentation on all of that, and I'll try to get an answer.
What do you mean that "Saddam" is not cut off from the rest of the world? Do you mean that there is no military blockade? Do you mean that assets in foreign accounts haven't been frozen? Do you mean that they are free to use foreign funds however they like? Do you mean that their economy has not been wrecked by the sanctions? Do you mean that there hasn't been a "brain-drain" due to the effects of the sanctions? Please be more specific and document what you mean.
quote:
Sadddam has found resources to rebuild his military just fine. He could have diverted some of that to medicine and food. It's not like Iraq is not truly cut off from the rest of the world. You look at these actual statistics then multiply them by 4 and place the blame anywhere but where it should be placed. How come you do that?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 13:11:46 [Permalink]
|
Please also keep in mind that any real smuggling was only allowed in the last couple of years to keep allies like Turkey happy. There were no foreign funds from anything other than the Oil-for-food money for the first several years.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 14:14:51 [Permalink]
|
My apologies regarding your posts. I generally cut and paste the pieces to which I want to respond. Click the little icon with the paper and red arrow, that inserts the code for the quote. Then I paste the information between the two opposing brackets. Seems to work fairly well, when I have opportunity on a faster/better machine than mine I attempt to compose the information in an outside text editor.
quote:
I did read some of Trish's web site. Trish found something in A web site that said something about Iraq "suspending" sanctions in 8/98 and she thought that was proof that Iraq had "kicked out" the inspectors in December. It is important to keep up with what the U.N. has to say, but there is even a diversity of opinion within the U.N. U.N. agencies (I think UNICEF and F.A.O.) have said in no uncertain terms that the sanctions are the cause of the death of at least a half a million children. That was in 1996. Some think a conservative estimate is 2 million people. Saddam Hussein is responsible for a lot, but the Bush/Clinton regimes are responsible for all of those deaths. That is what qualifies me to make comparisons. Certainly former employees like Denis Halliday and Hans Von Sponeck and Richard Butler all agree that the sanctions have to at least be changed radically. That possibility is not likely for a long time.
The Bush and latter Clinton administrations are not primarily responsible for ALL the deaths inside Iraq. Does some responsibility lie with the international community, yes. However, the primary responsibilty rests with Saddam and the Iraqi government.
Apparently I was confused in part. However, since reading the FAS site (also in part UN reports) I see these two documents are opposed. I will however, better take the position of those who were there. I think I've already shown that this is a conceded point.
quote:
I understood that you were explaining your point to Trish. So was I. It seemed to be her intention to say that the U.S. had some right to brutalize its neighbors. You said that others have the same idea. That was my point.
No that was not what I was saying. You made the comparison between Panama, Cuba and Iraq. That these were US operations. I was explaining to you the reasons the US did not involve the UN in the Panama and Cuba conflicts.
I am in concurrance with this statement:
quote:
On the contrary, the western democracies in general and the U.S. in particular are among the first to criticize themselves for perceived and actual acts of atrocity/murder/aggression/oppression/unfairness/environmental-destructiveness/et al. And while I don't pretend to be unbiased, my background (training and experience) are such that I accept almost nothing at face value, including the 'spin' of my own government, of which there is plenty (meaning both 'spin' and 'government'). I recognize that it is possible that I am wrong; you simply haven't convinced me.
And comparing Bush to Hussein does not in the slightest help your case. If you are at all serious in that regard, then I have to say you're losing credibility in my eyes; and to this point, you have quite a bit of it, even though I disagree with you.
You may legitimately argue (though I would disagree on this, too) that Bush is a simple profiteer, a politician unconcerned with environmental consequences, a business tool with little concern for the lower economic classes, and other unflattering things. But if you are saying that he is on a par with Hussein whose record of oppression, cruelty, aggression, and atrocity puts him at the top of the major leagues, then you've missed the boat.
I have never claimed that the US is innocent and absolved of all its actions in the international theater. The US like any other country is muddling through in areas that are highly sensitive and much of the time wihtout a complete understanding of the history (revisionist - probably) of each area. However, the US is again protecting its intersts as regards economics and security.
I think there was a comment regarding Germany and Japan not having militaries following WWII. The US still maintains forces and bases in Japan in accordance with the treaty signed following Japanese surrender.
Gorgo: If we got off on the wrong foot my apologies. Unfortunately one of my 'hot buttons' was hit in one of your statements. Neither of us reacted well in correspondence following our initial exchanges. As to the Troll joke, at that point my view was colored regarding your posts. I've said this before the written medium is woefully inadequate for expressing ideas and opinions, especially regarding jokes and the like. Unfortunately I was incapable of reading the humor...
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 06/14/2001 14:17:34 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 14:41:15 [Permalink]
|
This sort of highlights my point. The U.S. is "muddling" while other countries are "evil." When the U.S./UK team kills millions of people it either really never happened, was someone else's fault, or the U.S. is "muddling." It's okay for the U.S. to invade Panama and Vietnam, etc., and support all sorts of torture and murder but it's not okay for Iraq to make the same move when the U.S. said it would not interfere.
quote:
I have never claimed that the US is innocent and absolved of all its actions in the international theater. The US like any other country is muddling through in areas that are highly sensitive and much of the time wihtout a complete understanding of the history (revisionist - probably) of each area. However, the US is again protecting its intersts as regards economics and security.
4
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 15:13:53 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo, read the entire sentence please. I NEVER implied another country is 'evil' this is YOUR spin, NOT mine. I have stated other governments were in the WRONG, never have I implied any were EVIL!
quote:
The US like any other country is muddling through in areas that are highly sensitive and much of the time wihtout a complete understanding of the history (revisionist - probably) of each area. However, the US is again protecting its intersts as regards economics and security.
You wonder why we got off on the wrong foot. This alone shows you read what you want to read. I am in error on this also, however, I have admitted the error when pointed out. Please do NOT take my statements out of context.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 06/14/2001 15:16:14 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 15:46:38 [Permalink]
|
Yes, my placement of quotes was sloppy. Didn't mean to imply that you used those exact words, or that I was talking about you in particular. What I was talking about was your attitude and the attitude of most people I run into. The U.S. by definition doesn't commit crimes. If someone does pin a crime on the U.S., it's because of some bad apple in some isolated incident. On the other hand, certain others, often those of races and religions other than white Christians, are (insert whatever adjective you want here - evil, criminal, madmen, etc.).
quote:
You wonder why we got off on the wrong foot. 4
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
|
|
|
Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 18:40:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I don't think/believe (take your pick) that the bombing was *desinged* to hurt the civilian populace. Yes, any bombing of a country has the unfortunate side effect of damaging the infrastructure of a nation thus causing hardship and even destitution to the civilian populace.
In WWII, the German cities of Hamburg and Dresdin were carpet bombed with incindiaries. The results were that buildings were burned to the ground in city-wide firestorms and civilians were killed in large numbers. There was no direct military target in either city. There were two reasons for these bombings:
1. To terrorize the German people so they would lose their will to fight.
2. To show the German populace that Hitler was incapable of protecting them from Allied attack.
THIS IS WHAT WAR IS!!!
Is this good? No!
Should civilians be treated this way? No!
Would the US or any other nation on Earth do this again given the right circumstances? Yes!
Someone stated earlier (I can't find the quote) that Americans would send everyone back to Iraq if it meant cheap gas for their SUV's. I whole heartedly agree except that I would add that a "moral" reason would be found to do it.
"War is all hell. We cannot reform it."
Gen. W. T. Sherman
Regards,
Greg.
|
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2001 : 19:12:08 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Well, that's quite a statement. Show me some figures and some documentation on all of that, and I'll try to get an answer.
Those are bold words from someone that flips out terms like "daily bombings", "genocide" and "US/UK kill millions"
These are headlines for Rupert Murdoch publications.
I think the bottom line is that Saddam lost the war and agreed to certain conditions to end the war. He has not met those conditions so the citizens of Iraq have to suffer. Now you can bring up American spies being mixed in with the UN folks but what does that even matter? Is Saddam worried that the US might finally figure out how to make anthrax or an A-bomb? All any US spies want to know are what WMD Saddam has and where they are so they can be eliminated.
In the meantime Saddam keeps his troops fed like any good dictator will do. I don't think it's all that hard to figure out why he would do this no matter how much hardship is forced on the greater Iraqi population.
It doesn't matter what crimes the US or any other country may have committed. No other wrongs make Saddam right. Call the US or other nations evil/bad/naughty till you go blue in the face. It just doesn't matter.
The sanctions are supposed to make things hard on Iraqis so everything is going according to plan there.
Nice try making this a racial issue, but Iraq's neighbors have not been thrilled with Saddam's exploits either. The US is in the region by invitation. This is not the old Soviet style invitation written with a gun to the head, the US will leave if asked.
I can only add that everyone is concerned about the plight of Iraqis but the concern over what Saddam might do(based on what he has done)is a more urgent concern.
Well that's enough fun for now.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
