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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 03/29/2002 : 20:31:49 [Permalink]
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You are making a lot of assumptions about how Jane feels about sex. She might be reluctant just because she thinks Bob is unattractive. It only says she declines. There is no indication that she will suffer from having sex with Bob. Yes, Bill does freak but she obviously has no idea that that will happen.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 01:21:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Rape thread brought this to mind, but I didn't want to hijack that thread so I'm starting a new one.
What does this have to do with rape? But the answer to the so called 'training on negotiations' is, Jane and Bob had a contract, which each fullfilled. Bill was right not to get involved and if John didn't want to still be with her he was under no obligation. She should 'get over it.'
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 01:32:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
She refused and called me names.
----
That's how it ended. She got mad. The other female was befuddled. The other male was the husband of the hold out and seemed embarrassed. I was laughing and having quite a good time.
I'd a been laughing too. Women, HUH!! So typical.
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 01:40:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Seems Bob had a service and asked for payment. Bob received payment and rendered service.
Jane could have said no, and found other means across. There are other methods to crossing a river, though less safe. Were it really that important, even travel out of the way, to me anyway, would be preferable.
We seem to be in some agreement. I hate to agree with a woman. But I also don't like speculating at any time. It's like watching a soap opera, what if this....what if that. Who cares, we don't know so there's nothing we can do. I live with someone who's always thinking about what might happen instead of doing, he drives me crazy. It is what it is, deal with it!
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 01:54:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
I tried to make clear early on that I felt that being reluctant to exchange sex for something is worse than being reluctant to exchange money. There are emotional and psychological implications here, as sex is a very intimate and personal act.
I also said early on that I thought the only way Bob could be considered honorable in his actions was if Jane wasn't reluctant to exchange sex for passage.
Jane's reluctance is definitely an assumption on my part, but one I think is justified in that Jane initially refused Bob's offer. So Jane obviously didn't initially believe that having sex with Bob was worth gaining passage to see John.
Unless Bob is a total moron, he can see that Jane doesn't really want to have sex with him, but she really wants to go see John, so she gives in.
Bob dishonorably takes advantage of Jane's desire to cross the river, on a level far, far deeper than would be the case were it just a monetary exchange involved.
Of course, I know that all of this discussion is opinion, depending on assumptions about the scenario.
I'm not claiming anyone is wrong in what they're saying. I'm just saying I don't understand why they think that Bob is in any way honorable. He was honest, but in taking advantage of a woman in need for his own sexual gratification (unless she really didn't mind, which is not the assumption I'm making) is as far from honorable as I believe one can get.
Just before I came to your post I was thinking, everyone is assuming that sex is something sacred or something. BULL!
But since you mention it, we can't know what was in the mind of either of them. Perhaps that should have been part of the contract or discussed before asking to have sex with her. As it stands, Bob did nothing wrong, therefore is not dishonorable.
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 06:22:50 [Permalink]
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Before I make any comments, could I see the videotape?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 09:37:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'd a been laughing too. Women, HUH!! So typical.
*Slaps him and collapses sobbing*
TD:
quote:
I'm just saying I don't understand why they think that Bob is in any way honorable. He was honest, but in taking advantage of a woman in need for his own sexual gratification (unless she really didn't mind, which is not the assumption I'm making) is as far from honorable as I believe one can get.
Who was taking advantage? He asked for sex as payment. Big deal.
He would be on the top of the list if it wasn't for the possibility that Jane absolutly needed to cross the river.
Every calculation involves some amount of error. But here....we haven't enough information to make a decision without running a very large chance of being wrong, because we simply haven't enough information.
What if Jane were a carnivorous plant from a parallel universe whose only desire was to eat (you know what I mean) John, and that is why she wanted to cross?
Making a correct judgment requires more information.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Ia Cthulhu! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 17:34:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I'd a been laughing too. Women, HUH!! So typical.
*Slaps him and collapses sobbing*
 LOL
BTW, I do have some women friends, they are OK. Just can't stand being in the same room with a bunch of them. They make me angry.  
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 17:43:40 [Permalink]
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You watch it buster!
*Shrugs* Most (most?! all!) of my good friends are male. Don't ask me why, one of 'those things'.
Edit to add: This post was actually quite substantiative and resolved the dilemna permanently. However, you do not see this because you are not as brilliant as Xev.
In fact, the easiest way out of this situation is if Jane had made the proper sacrifices to Great Cthulhu.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Ia Cthulhu!
Edited by - Xev on 03/30/2002 17:45:02
Edited by - Xev on 03/30/2002 17:46:48 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 13:19:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
*Shrugs* Most (most?! all!) of my good friends are male. Don't ask me why, one of 'those things'.
I won't ask why, I know. Because men are gods. They are smart, handsome, strong and kind. Everything women are not.
This whole problem of who was more honorable could have been solved if Bob was gay, therefore having no interest in Jane in the 1st place.
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 14:38:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
I won't ask why, I know. Because men are gods. They are smart, handsome, strong and kind. Everything women are not
Uh, Snake, did you palm your meds today?
quote:
This whole problem of who was more honorable could have been solved if Bob was gay, therefore having no interest in Jane in the 1st place.
Yeah, or if Great Cthulhu awoke and ate all four of them. Iä!
There's your solution, Garrette.
Or if Jane was gay, thus having no interest in John.
But I think my Cthulhu scenerio is cooler.
- Cthulhu Saves! -
Edited by - Xev on 03/31/2002 14:49:18 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 22:25:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just before I came to your post I was thinking, everyone is assuming that sex is something sacred or something. BULL!
But since you mention it, we can't know what was in the mind of either of them. Perhaps that should have been part of the contract or discussed before asking to have sex with her. As it stands, Bob did nothing wrong, therefore is not dishonorable.
It doesn't matter what everyone thinks about sex. What matters: what Jane thinks about sex and what motivated Bob to ask for sex as payment knowing that a) there are other things that can be used as payment; b) Jane clearly was uncomfortable having sex with Bob as payment.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 22:36:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
TD:
quote:
I'm just saying I don't understand why they think that Bob is in any way honorable. He was honest, but in taking advantage of a woman in need for his own sexual gratification (unless she really didn't mind, which is not the assumption I'm making) is as far from honorable as I believe one can get.
Who was taking advantage? He asked for sex as payment. Big deal.
Every character in the exercise has some kind of implied moral obligation to another character. I find it odd that you are willing to let Bob off the hook entirely.
quote:
Every calculation involves some amount of error. But here....we haven't enough information to make a decision without running a very large chance of being wrong, because we simply haven't enough information.
Actually, we know that there are implied moral obligations. Bob's moral obligation, IMO, was to provide a means of transport that didn't require a payment that was counter to Jane's moral principles. He failed to do that. I simply cannot absolve him of all moral responsibility.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
Edited by - PhDreamer on 03/31/2002 22:36:23 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 23:03:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Every character in the exercise has some kind of implied moral obligation to another character. I find it odd that you are willing to let Bob off the hook entirely.
I changed my position. I don't think that Jane absolutly needed to cross, therefore her decision to sleep with Bob was purely hers.
quote:
Actually, we know that there are implied moral obligations. Bob's moral obligation, IMO, was to provide a means of transport that didn't require a payment that was counter to Jane's moral principles. He failed to do that. I simply cannot absolve him of all moral responsibility
*Shrugs*
What if Jane was a anarchist/green type who didn't believe in the morality of using money as currency? She tries to pay Bob in bales of wheat, he refuses and demands real money.
As long as there was no real need for Jane to cross, Bob is justified in asking for money, he is justified in asking for sex.
But, I won't revise my table. I'm going to hold out until somone sees the need to bribe me to put Bob second.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2002 : 01:40:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I won't ask why, I know. Because men are gods. They are smart, handsome, strong and kind. Everything women are not
Uh, Snake, did you palm your meds today?
HUH? Funny you should ask! I ran out of my stomach pills so now I can't eat for 10 days until I can get some more.
I suppose you can expect some delirious posts during that time due to lack of nurishment. Yikes, it's starting already!!!
"If you succeed, you sell. If you "fail" you learn." |
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