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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2007 : 14:39:03
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Allegre's second thoughts
The Deniers -- The National Post's series on scientists who buck the conventional wisdom on climate science
Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among his most celebrated scientists, was among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming.
"By burning fossil fuels, man increased the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which, for example, has raised the global mean temperature by half a degree in the last century,"
With a wealth of data now in, Dr. Allegre has recanted his views. To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena. Dr. Allegre now sees global warming as over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank.
His article cited evidence that Antarctica is gaining ice and that Kilimanjaro's retreating snow caps, among other global-warming concerns, come from natural causes. "The cause of this climate change is unknown," he states matter of factly. There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the "science is settled."
Dr. Allegre has the highest environmental credentials. The author of early environmental books, he fought successful battles to protect the ozone layer from CFCs and public health from lead pollution. His break with scientific dogma over global warming came at a personal cost: Colleagues in both the governmental and environmental spheres were aghast that he could publicly question the science behind climate change.
His dream, he says, is to see "ecology become the engine of economic development and not an artificial obstacle that creates fear."
Claude Allegre received a Ph D in physics in 1962 from the University of Paris. He became the director of the geochemistry and cosmochemistry program at the French National Scientific Research Centre in 1967 and in 1971, he was appointed director of the University of Paris's Department of Earth Sciences. In 1976, he became director of the Paris Institut de Physique du Globe. He is an author of more than 100 scientific articles, many of them seminal studies on the evolution of the Earth using isotopic evidence, and 11 books. He is a member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the French Academy of Science.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=2f4cc62e-5b0d-4b59-8705-fc28f14da388
Greenhouse effect is a myth, say scientists
By JULIE WHELDON
Research said to prove that greenhouse gases cause climate change has been condemned as a sham by scientists.
In fact global warming could be caused by increased solar activity such as a massive eruption.
Ice core samples from Antarctica have been used as proof of how warming over the centuries has been accompanied by raised CO2 levels.
But Professor Ian Clark, an expert in palaeoclimatology from the University of Ottawa, claims that warmer periods of the Earth's history came around 800 years before rises in carbon dioxide levels.
The programme also highlights how, after the Second World War, there was a huge surge in carbon dioxide emissions, yet global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.
The UN report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was published in February. At the time it was promoted as being backed by more than 2,000 of the world's leading scientists.
But Professor Paul Reiter, of the Pasteur Institute in Paris, said it was a "sham" given that this list included the names of scientists who disagreed with its findings.
"That is how they make it seem that all the top scientists are agreed," he said. "It's not true."
Gary Calder, a former editor of New Scientist, claims clouds and solar activity are the real reason behind climate change.
"The government's chief scientific adviser Sir David King is supposed to be the representative of all that is good in British science, so it is disturbing he and the government are ignoring a raft of evidence against the greenhouse effect being the main driver against climate change," he said.
Philip Stott, emeritus professor of biogeography at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, said climate change is too complicated to be caused by just one factor, whether CO2 or clouds.
He said: "The system is too complex to say exactly what the effect of cutting back on CO2 production would be or indeed of continuing to produce CO2.
"It is ridiculous to see politicians arguing over whether they will allow the global temperature to rise by 2c or 3c."
The documentary is likely to spark fierce criticism from the scientific establishment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=440049&in_page_id=1965
In a polemical and thought-provoking documentary, film-maker Martin Durkin argues that the theory of man-made global warming has become such a powerful political force that other explanations for climate change are not being properly aired.
Instead the documentary highlights recent research that the effect of the sun's radiation on the atmosphere may be a better explanation for the regular swings of climate from ice ages to warm interglacial periods and back again.
The film argues that the earth's climate is always changing, and that rapid warmings and coolings took place long before the burning of fossil fuels. It argues that the present single-minded focus on reducing carbon emissions not only may have little impact on climate change, it may also have the unintended consequence of stifling development in the third world, prolonging endemic poverty and disease.
The film hears from scientists who dispute the link between carbon dioxide levels and global temperatures.
'The ice core record goes to the very heart of the problem we have,' says Tim Ball, Climatologist and Prof Emeritus of Geography at the University of Winnipeg in the documentary. 'They said if CO2 increases in the atmosphere, as a greenhouse gas, then the temperature will go up'.
In fact, the experts in the film argue that increased CO2 levels are actually a result of temperature rises, not their cause, and that this alternate view is rarely heard. 'So the fundamental assumption, the most fundamental assumption of the whole theory of climate change due to humans, is shown to be wrong.'
'I've often heard it said that there is a consensus of thousands of scientists on the global warming issue, that humans are causing a catastrophic change to the climate system,' says John Christy, Professor and Director of the Earth System Science Center, NSSTC University of Alabama. 'Well I am one scientist, and there are many, that simply think that is not true.'
The film examines an alternative theory that explains global temperatures, based on research by Professor Eigil Friis-Christensen of the Danish Space Center. The professor and his team found that as solar activity increases, and the sun flares, cloud formation on earth is significantly diminished and temperature rises.
Ian Clark, Professor of Isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology at the Dept of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa explains: 'Solar activity over the last hundred years, over the last several hundred years, correlates very nicely, on a decadal basis, with temperature.'
Finally, the film argues that restricting CO2 emissions could actually be damaging for people in the developing world. James Shikwati, Kenyan director of the Inter Region Economic Network, says: 'The rich countries can afford to engage in some luxurious experimentation with other forms of energy, but for us we are still at the stage of survival.
'I don't see how a solar panel is going to power a steel industry, how a solar panel is going to power a railway network, it might work, maybe, to power a small transistor radio.
'The thing that emerges from the whole environmental debate is the point that there is somebody keen to kill the African dream, and the African dream is to develop. We are being told don't touch your resources, don't touch your oil, don't touch your coal; that is suicide.'
http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 14:51:23 [Permalink]
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My curiosity impels me to ask: Where in your scriptures does your god require humanity to destroy the earth? It must be there somewhere, else so many of you fundies would not so determined to support its destruction with your desperate global warming denials againt the mass of scientific evidence. Just where does your god instruct us to be such bad stewards of his creation?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2007 : 15:00:12 [Permalink]
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Half, Billy isn't really a religious person. He is a political one who hides behind religion.
The best he can do is cite one or two "dissenters" who are quoted (probably misquoted) in obviously bias political publications.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 15:37:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
My curiosity impels me to ask: Where in your scriptures does your god require humanity to destroy the earth? It must be there somewhere, else so many of you fundies would not so determined to support its destruction with your desperate global warming denials againt the mass of scientific evidence. Just where does your god instruct us to be such bad stewards of his creation?
quote:
It must be there somewhere, else so many of you fundies would not so determined to support its destruction with your desperate global warming denials againt the mass of scientific evidence
What scientific evidence? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 15:45:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Half, Billy isn't really a religious person. He is a political one who hides behind religion.
The best he can do is cite one or two "dissenters" who are quoted (probably misquoted) in obviously bias political publications.
Typical MMGW theorist, dismiss any opposing scientist who does not tow the MMGW line with nothing but a handwave and then pound your chest as a champion of science. What a clown. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 15:49:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
What scientific evidence?
All the stuff cited in the last thread. It didn't go away just because you ignored it, you know.
This is the same game you play with evolution, bill. Post things which support your pre-held beliefs and ignore any contractory evidence as if it doesn't exist.
We're quite used to your game by now, bill, but it does leave us scratching our heads. Why do you have these pre-held belief that man cannot be responsible for global warming? I mean, if you were truly neutral on the topic, your posts wouldn't be so one-sided. It wouldn't have taken other people to uncover the lack of credibility in your last source, for example, since a fair-minded person would have already researched it.
So you tell us, bill. Why are you so biased on this issue?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/05/2007 15:50:34 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:04:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
What scientific evidence?
All the stuff cited in the last thread. It didn't go away just because you ignored it, you know.
This is the same game you play with evolution, bill. Post things which support your pre-held beliefs and ignore any contractory evidence as if it doesn't exist.
We're quite used to your game by now, bill, but it does leave us scratching our heads. Why do you have these pre-held belief that man cannot be responsible for global warming? I mean, if you were truly neutral on the topic, your posts wouldn't be so one-sided. It wouldn't have taken other people to uncover the lack of credibility in your last source, for example, since a fair-minded person would have already researched it.
So you tell us, bill. Why are you so biased on this issue?
quote:
All the stuff cited in the last thread.
Which was?
quote:
but it does leave us scratching our heads
I can picture that very easy.
quote:
Why do you have these pre-held belief that man cannot be responsible for global warming?
Why do you have the pre-held belief that he is?
quote:
I mean, if you were truly neutral on the topic
As if you are?
quote:
So you tell us, bill. Why are you so biased on this issue?
Why are you? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/05/2007 16:06:23 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:13:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Which was?
In the last thread. Click on over.
quote:
Why do you have the pre-held belief that he is?
The evidence and scientific consensus. I know you are not used to it, but intelligent people hold positions that are evidenced.
quote:
As if you are?
Yep. Whoever has the most evidence wins. We are like referees. We do not pretend to have all of the answers, we do not pretend to know more about the science than the scientist.
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Why are you?
We aren't. If you could produce evidence it would be attended to by the skeptics.
Good strategy Bill accuse your accuser, and now just ignore the fact that you have been answered and never address our query. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 03/05/2007 16:14:40 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:15:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
My curiosity impels me to ask: Where in your scriptures does your god require humanity to destroy the earth? It must be there somewhere, else so many of you fundies would not so determined to support its destruction with your desperate global warming denials againt the mass of scientific evidence. Just where does your god instruct us to be such bad stewards of his creation?
quote:
It must be there somewhere, else so many of you fundies would not so determined to support its destruction with your desperate global warming denials againt the mass of scientific evidence
So when Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, and among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming, revises his decades worth of study and concludes that, “To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming.”, you dismiss this with a hand wave based off of what? Let me guess: An infalable "scientific" climate model. (sigh)
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:18:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Half, Billy isn't really a religious person. He is a political one who hides behind religion.
The best he can do is cite one or two "dissenters" who are quoted (probably misquoted) in obviously bias political publications.
Typical MMGW theorist, dismiss any opposing scientist who does not tow the MMGW line with nothing but a handwave and then pound your chest as a champion of science. What a clown.
Typical denier strategy, hold onto any scientist(ish) who says what you want to hear as the Einstein of the day. Saying "See these scientist are doubters too!" |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:22:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
In the last thread. Click on over
Show it.
quote:
We do not pretend to have all of the answers, we do not pretend to know more about the science than the scientist.
So when Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, and among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming, revises his decades worth of study and concludes that, “To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming.”, you dismiss this with a hand wave based off of what? Let me guess: An infalable "scientific" climate model. (sigh)
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:23:08 [Permalink]
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Maybe its just me, but why is this even a discussion? Why does this even matter?
If man didn't do it, what does that matter since the temperatures are higher and there are observed consequences, and how does that in any way mean that we don't want cleaner fuels and cleaner air? What would that mean Bill? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:26:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
So when Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, and among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming, revises his decades worth of study and concludes that, “To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming.”, you dismiss this with a hand wave based off of what? Let me guess: An infalable "scientific" climate model. (sigh)
Bill, we looked at your last thread and found your source to have serious credibility issues, none of which you ever acknowledged or addressed. So who dismissed evidence "with a handwave?"
I'm sure these (new) claims of yours will also be addressed, and I'll reserve judgement until I and others have had time to do so.
But that doesn't explain why you've failed to acknowledge all previous efforts on our part, or why your position didn't change when your errors were pointed out to you. It doesn't explain why you hold a pre-held belief that man cannot affect climate change.
People here have been quite consistent in explaining that they'll go with the best evidence and the scientific concensus on this matter. You've not explained why you will not. You've not explained how the views of one dissenter hold more sway with you than the dozens of other climatologists who uphold the consensus.
Why is that? And why is it you can't answer without becoming insulting?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/05/2007 16:35:05 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:28:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Typical denier strategy, hold onto any scientist(ish) who says what you want to hear as the Einstein of the day. Saying "See these scientist are doubters too!"
Claude Allegre, is one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, and among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming two decades ago. Hardly a flash in the pan. Of course as soon as his decades worth of study on the topic disagree with you, you dismiss him. And your credentials, that exceed his, are what? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:51:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
What scientific evidence?
All the stuff cited in the last thread. It didn't go away just because you ignored it, you know.
This is the same game you play with evolution, bill. Post things which support your pre-held beliefs and ignore any contractory evidence as if it doesn't exist.
We're quite used to your game by now, bill, but it does leave us scratching our heads. Why do you have these pre-held belief that man cannot be responsible for global warming? I mean, if you were truly neutral on the topic, your posts wouldn't be so one-sided. It wouldn't have taken other people to uncover the lack of credibility in your last source, for example, since a fair-minded person would have already researched it.
So you tell us, bill. Why are you so biased on this issue?
quote:
All the stuff cited in the last thread.
Which was?
quote:
but it does leave us scratching our heads
I can picture that very easy.
quote:
Why do you have these pre-held belief that man cannot be responsible for global warming?
Why do you have the pre-held belief that he is?
quote:
I mean, if you were truly neutral on the topic
As if you are?
quote:
So you tell us, bill. Why are you so biased on this issue?
Why are you?
E-fucking-nough, already! Godammit Bill, I can't believe you posted that! What, are we using forth grade argument strategy now? Shit! Grow up!
And whilst you're about it, study this site and this one. Yeesh!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 16:54:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Typical denier strategy, hold onto any scientist(ish) who says what you want to hear as the Einstein of the day. Saying "See these scientist are doubters too!"
Claude Allegre, is one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, and among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming two decades ago. Hardly a flash in the pan. Of course as soon as his decades worth of study on the topic disagree with you, you dismiss him. And your credentials, that exceed his, are what?
And, of course, consistent and fair-minded as you are, Bill, you also praised Claude Allegre's credentials as a daring anti-establishment scientist back in the days when he insisted that global warming was caused by man.
Correct, Bill?
Sadly, I have no scientific credentials, Bill. But neither do you.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/05/2007 16:57:10 |
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Man Made Global Warming skepticism on the rise
