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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2008 : 20:52:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Just as I didn't have to have any such genetic information to investigate simply if colour pink is on the bird, I don't need anything other than hair and cut marks or not, to class a phenotype. Either they got a haircut or not, observable by cut marks. |
Then you are insisting that there is a genetic component to getting a haircut. If there is no such component (if the coefficient is zero), it cannot be a phenotype.
If I catch a squirrel, give it a haircut and release it into the wild, no squirrel biologist who finds it and the "cut marks" would think it represents some new squirrel phenotype because the hair cut isn't the result of the interaction between the squirrel's genes and its environment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 20:52:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
yes it is . I was just referring to if we had, or not, gone over this before !
You are deficient equally, or more so, in this particular example of comprehension. |
Obviously I'm an idiot. I should ask Hopkins for my money back. Er, they should ask me for their money back. Anyhow, please explain how a haircut is a manifestation of a genotype. I obviously don't get it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 20:55:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
To ascetain an answer FOR A CERTAIN QUESTION. |
This doesn't make any sense at all. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 20:55:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
you are still missing it.
phenotype categories are used to answer questions
I don't have to show any such thing as a genetic component, encoding for, with colour. Or with cut marks on hair, as we discussed, in order to ask a question and investigate.
Just as I didn't have to have any such genetic information to investigate simply if colour pink is on the bird, I don't need anything other than hair and cut marks or not, to class a phenotype. Either they got a haircut or not, observable by cut marks. |
This is completely wrong. Otherwise, a one-legged man who lost his leg because of a shark attack is, in your mind, a phenotype.
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absolutely is a phenotype...To ascetain an answer FOR A CERTAIN QUESTION.
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 I guess I missed that part of the definition of phenotype. So now a man whose leg was bitten off by a shark is a phenotype. Cool. I have three tattoos. Am I a phenotype? And if so, am I a different pheonotype from other people who have three tattoos? Or are all three-tattooed people part of the same phenotype? What if I have three tattoos and got my hair cut? Am I a new phenotype?
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:11:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
yes it is . I was just referring to if we had, or not, gone over this before !
You are deficient equally, or more so, in this particular example of comprehension. |
Obviously I'm an idiot. I should ask Hopkins for my money back. Er, they should ask me for their money back. Anyhow, please explain how a haircut is a manifestation of a genotype. I obviously don't get it.
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I never said it was. Why do you now require me to explain that ? |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:15:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
| I don't have to show any such thing as a genetic component, encoding for, with colour. Or with cut marks on hair, as we discussed, in order to ask a question and investigate. |
You know a priori that color is in the genes. That's the only reason you don't have to show it. |
certainly NOT. The reason nobody has to show it is in the genes in this experiment is that colour pink is a quale. We are checking for delta quale only, or we inject the a priori knowledge improperly. It's impoper to introduce that, because we should let the experiment tell us, not the other way 'round. we should let the experiment run, and read the delta of the quale.
Perhaps a more important question that you should be trying to answer first is what are phenotypes used for. If you are going to call a hair cut a phenotypic difference, then as Dave showed before, the word loses any possible use.
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it certainly CAN, and that's why we have to be pragmatic in choice of phenotype categories we create, to use in a specific investigation, for a specific question, in fact.
I like the fact that you are now looking to the potential use of phenotype categorization, if it's useless or not to do some categorizations. It is. |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/08/2008 21:25:22 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:23:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I have three tattoos. Am I a phenotype? |
I'm beginning to think ( ) that it would depend upon whether you got them voluntarily or not.
Again, in the broadest possible sense, everything you do has some genetic component to it, oftentimes related to trying to increase the number of times you'll get laid. Tattoos, of course, are nothing but babe magnets (double-).
But if some random stranger bonks you on the head and tattoos you while you're out, that can't possibly be your genes in action. It's your assailant's genes in action.
Unless, of course, one wishes to argue that your genes led you to be in a situation in which there was a non-zero risk of being clobbered and tattooed by a stranger.
But on the other hand, there is always a non-zero risk of xeno-concussion-tattooing, so maybe your genes just led you to increase that risk.
(Anything is possible with a judicious use of the word "maybe.") |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:32:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
The reason nobody has to show it is in the genes in this experiment is that colour pink is a quale. |
If you try to consider pink independently of the things that exhibit pinkness, you are no longer considering phenotype.
No biological characteristic can be a quale, because all such characteristics depend upon the entities exhibiting them.
Hair cuts are non-biological. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:36:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
yes it is . I was just referring to if we had, or not, gone over this before !
You are deficient equally, or more so, in this particular example of comprehension. |
Obviously I'm an idiot. I should ask Hopkins for my money back. Er, they should ask me for their money back. Anyhow, please explain how a haircut is a manifestation of a genotype. I obviously don't get it.
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I never said it was. Why do you now require me to explain that ? |
Yahweh save me. So what are you arguing? In biology, a phenotype is the the outward physical manifestation of internally coded, inheritable, information. That is, the outward physical manifestation of a genotype. In your original post, you asked if a haircut were such a manifestation. Right? If so, then this is what you should be trying to prove. |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:44:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I have three tattoos. Am I a phenotype? |
I'm beginning to think () that it would depend upon whether you got them voluntarily or not.
Again, in the broadest possible sense, everything you do has some genetic component to it, oftentimes related to trying to increase the number of times you'll get laid. Tattoos, of course, are nothing but babe magnets (double-).
But if some random stranger bonks you on the head and tattoos you while you're out, that can't possibly be your genes in action. It's your assailant's genes in action. this is where we have to be pragmatic and not waste time and enormous money in order to find a very weak connection to you. Very weak, most likely....but never do know, if for you, "not" :) as an example, it is genetic to be roaming the night streets where tattoo artists live on meth. Just trying to help your example along, again. But it is a long shot, so we don't bother usually.
the interesting thing that is happening, is that we can include all these separate unknowables into one bag and proceed !
For what purpose do we want to know any particular super low coefficient variable, is th equestion as to pragmatism.
[quote]
Unless, of course, one wishes to argue that your genes led you to be in a situation in which there was a non-zero risk of being clobbered and tattooed by a stranger. |
we aren't totally willing to say there can be no genetiic involvement because we know statistically there is a tie between genetics and roaming, isn't that so ? We feel that , right? and you hedged, as I would.
[quote]
But on the other hand, there is always a non-zero risk of xeno-concussion-tattooing, so maybe your genes just led you to increase that risk.
(Anything is possible with a judicious use of the word "maybe.")
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anything is possible and something surprising is happening which ties in with acceptance of this idea, that everything's connected in some way to the something you might want to use as phenotype.
You get the idea now.
Now get this.
It's connected, similarly - everything is connected - to what the genetics "works" ( the genes and their adopted load of introduced [through environment ; lip gloss] entangling molecules, and impinging molecules ) are becoming, vis a vis epigenetics.
Now to see how it is connected to genotype. This surprising research and theory detangles everything as far as our discussion goes. |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/08/2008 21:46:45 |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 21:56:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
yes it is . I was just referring to if we had, or not, gone over this before !
You are deficient equally, or more so, in this particular example of comprehension. |
Obviously I'm an idiot. I should ask Hopkins for my money back. Er, they should ask me for their money back. Anyhow, please explain how a haircut is a manifestation of a genotype. I obviously don't get it.
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I never said it was. Why do you now require me to explain that ? |
Yahweh save me. So what are you arguing?[I'm arguing here, that I never said it was. Wy should I have to deal with all of biology, suddenly ? why didn't you leave it as genetics ? You switched goalposts, that's all I protested. now you go back to genetics, so we are cool. I don't want you to expand my scope here to all of biology.
[quote] In biology, a phenotype is the the outward physical manifestation of internally coded, inheritable, information. That is, the outward physical manifestation of a genotype. In your original post, you asked if a haircut were such a manifestation. Right?[quote]As I stated, a phenotype can e anything, and categorization we choose, not limited by your assertion that it must be such and such.
We CAN choose, for instance, to look for "white", the original phenotype we start the experiment with.. Nothing more. We look for change in white. Going Pink is a change in quale. Another phenotype category is seen. Now quale pink is vs, quale of white.
If so, then this is what you should be trying to prove.
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exactly. we look for delta quale. which in this case, is "white to pink" |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 22:00:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
It's connected, similarly - everything is connected - to what the genetics "works" ( the genes and their adopted load of introduced [through environment ; lip gloss] entangling molecules, and impinging molecules ) are becoming, vis a vis epigenetics. |
Being connected, it's not a quale.| Now to see how it is connected to genotype. |
Yes, let's see it. How is getting beaten and tattooed (I never said anything about "roaming") connected to one's genes?| This surprising research and theory detangles everything as far as our discussion goes. |
Then I can't wait to hear it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2008 : 22:07:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
The reason nobody has to show it is in the genes in this experiment is that colour pink is a quale. |
[quote]If you try to consider pink independently of the things that exhibit pinkness, you are no longer considering phenotype. |
we are considering whether or not there was a change, that's all ! there was a change of the quale white to pink. that's all we are observing for. No extra claims please. the method used in this experiment is to check for white and see what happens to it. If white turns pink, then we see a change in colour. That's all we report as OBSERVATION, as if it was all in a test tube and we added pigment.the reort is not substantially different in style, neither going into theory, merely to report observations.
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It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/08/2008 22:11:54 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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If I get a haircut
Topic Locked
