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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
 Posted - 06/12/2008 : 11:52:33 [Permalink]
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and I wasted about a full page of YOUR time because I mistook who was posting to me.
not wasted for me, because that is making me get my new glasses.
that was bad. Not making the ID mistake, but wrongfully commenting negatively in reply to his offering of the info I had requested from him. |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 12:03:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 12:20:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Look at the squirming Dave and Cune went through, trying to NOT agree that my statement - without Dave's added opinion, adding that it "means" phenotyupe, or without Cune's fumbling attempts to include the memes - I jusr neeeded agreement form one of you ,without hedges, without additons, that my statement was correct - that's all. Just correct. |
The grammar in your statement is so bad that it's hard to agree to it. If it were an actual statement instead of a question, that might have made it easier.
The rest of this post and your next just seems to be you running off the rails.
I'll ask for the sixth time: what is your point in all this? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 13:21:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
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I second that. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 13:47:31 [Permalink]
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| that you can have a phenotypic difference due to environmental influence alone, 100 % correlation with environmental influence ( haircut ) , 0 % correlation with genetic influence (gene encoding for the phenotype ). |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 13:49:10 |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 13:52:59 [Permalink]
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but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference  |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 14:40:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
that you can have a phenotypic difference due to environmental influence alone, 100 % correlation with environmental influence ( haircut ) , 0 % correlation with genetic influence (gene encoding for the phenotype ).
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No, I think your trying to redefine words here. A phenotypic difference is 100% genetic based, but may require environmental influence to display itself. It is passable to the next generation.
Cutting your hair is not a phenotypic difference since the hair style is not passed in the genes to the next generation. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 14:42:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference
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What do you mean? Either it is a phenotypic difference or not. How can it not be a phenotypic difference and still be genetic? |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 14:43:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference
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What do you mean? Either it is a phenotypic difference or not. How can it not be a phenotypic difference and still be genetic?
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Paulo, that's the rub.
Let's talk about that. How is it exactly that you see this as a self-evidenced contradiction ?
M. |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 14:47:52 |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 14:52:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference
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What do you mean? Either it is a phenotypic difference or not. How can it not be a phenotypic difference and still be genetic?
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Paulo, that's the rub.
Let's talk about that. How is it exactly that you see this as a self-evident contradiction ?
M.
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Look at the definition for phenotype. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenotype
1.
a. The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.
b. The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
That is genetic and environmental. I think your trying to make it an or.
Plus it is describing it as a observable physical or biochemical characteristic, a characteristic that is passed to the next generation. I can't see anything that fits this definition and not be a phenotype.
And I still can't see how a hair cut fits in that definition. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 14:56:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference
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What do you mean? Either it is a phenotypic difference or not. How can it not be a phenotypic difference and still be genetic?
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Paulo, that's the rub.
Let's talk about that. How is it exactly that you see this as a self-evident contradiction ?
M.
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Look at the definition for phenotype. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenotype
1.
a. The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.
b. The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
That is genetic and environmental. I think your trying to make it an or.
Plus it is describing it as a observable physical or biochemical characteristic, a characteristic that is passed to the next generation. I can't see anything that fits this definition and not be a phenotype.
And I still can't see how a hair cut fits in that definition.
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good reply; give me an hour for dinner, and I'll reply,
thanks |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:00:03 [Permalink]
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Because; as people have said multiple times, the root of a phenotype is in the genes. A phenotype is the physical expression of the genotype (that's the reason why the words are written so similarly).
It is the product of both the expression of the genes and the environmental influence on this expression.
Phenotype: The appearance of an individual, which results from the interaction of the person's genetic makeup and his or her environment. By contrast, the genotype is merely the genetic constitution (genome) of an individual. For example, if a child's genotype includes the gene for osteogenesis imperfecta (brittle bone disease), minimal trauma can cause fractures. The gene is the genotype, and the brittle bones themselves are the phenotype. |
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:12:39 [Permalink]
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How can it not be a phenotypic difference and still be genetic?
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Paulos, that's the rub.
Let's talk about that. How is it exactly that you see this as a self-evident contradiction ?
M.
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Look at the definition for phenotype. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenotype
1.
a. The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.[quote]quite[quote]
b. The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
[yes, agreed]
[quote]
That is genetic and environmental. I think your trying to make it an or. |
can you go one further step please, Paulos, and show how you you arrive at seeing a contradiction ?
You see, if I follow your logic on (b.), and attack the meme, removing it and replacing it with a word suitable to you, we cut the circular reasoning.
Agreed ? |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 15:27:45 |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:25:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Look at the definition for phenotype. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenotype
1.
a. The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.
b. The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
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OK, so you agree with the definition.
| That is genetic and environmental. I think your trying to make it an or. |
can you go one further step please, Paulo, and show how you you arrive at seeing a contradiction ?
You see, if I follow your logic on (b.), and attack the meme, removing it and replacing it with a word suitable to you, we cut the circular reasoning.
Agreed ?
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No, you lose me here. What meme are you talking about? The definition of the word? What good reason do you have to change the definition of the word? Or are you trying to attack an idea behind the word that you have yet to define?
I still can't even see why you made this statement:
| but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference |
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You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:30:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by MuhammedGoldstein
Look at the definition for phenotype. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenotype
1.
a. The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.
b. The expression of a specific trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
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OK, so you agree with the definition. |
yes.
| That is genetic and environmental. I think your trying to make it an or. |
can you go one further step please, Paulos, and show how you you arrive at seeing a contradiction ?
You see, if I follow your logic on (b.), and attack the meme, removing it and replacing it with a word suitable to you, we cut the circular reasoning.
Agreed ?
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No, you lose me here. What meme are you talking about? The definition of the word? What good reason do you have to change the definition of the word? Or are you trying to attack an idea behind the word that you have yet to define?
I still can't even see why you made this statement:
| but it doesn't HAVE to be a phenotypic difference |
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OK, too many questions for me to handle at once. And I've lost you too.
so we can attack the logic anther way for now. one prominent meme is "trait" , for starters. If you think about the word in a normal sense, you can tell that the sense you are using it in is a specialized sense. It conveys more than the word itself would convey in a normal conversation. Strictly speaking, the meme can be differentiated out of the picture, simply by applying the correct modifier and realizing the difference created. You thereby return the word to a normal meme.
IN this case, you need to add the modifier "genetic" to "trait"
in your example, in order to correctly make the assumptions you do.
Like this: | The expression of a specific genetic trait, such as stature or blood type, based on genetic and environmental influences. |
then you have a solid statement that you can make those assumptions on. It takes your argument from a "may be true" to a definite "true". |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 16:08:19 |
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MuhammedGoldstein
BANNED
201 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:57:34 [Permalink]
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proof available. examine blood type. can it ever change ? with your statement, it cannot encompass the "contradiction" of blood type change.
my addition of the correct modifier encompasses any situation. Your argument is now correct always. |
It does mention phenotype, just without using the word "phenotype."... DAVEW |
| Edited by - MuhammedGoldstein on 06/12/2008 15:59:57 |
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If I get a haircut 2
