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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 01:53:03 [Permalink]
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You're welcome. I won't be joining this discussion though. The premise is rejected by creationists, IDist and evolutionary biologists as far as I can tell. More evidence would be needed.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2008 : 04:15:43 [Permalink]
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Darwin's Debt to Christianity
That's kind of an odd title, really, because Darwin owes Christianity squat. In fact, the only people who owe Christianity anything at all are the clerics who live off it and the grifters that steal with it. The same can be said of the rest of the world's more widely-accepted superstitions. There. I've said it. 'Twas time someone did.
I think that at least a part of no1's problem with evolution is that he thinks it's some sort of a precise progression of 'from & to.' Nothing could be farther from the fact of it; evolution is a sloppy hodge-podge of inconsistency and failed species. Over 99% of all species ever upon the earth are extinct largely due to evolution's inability to keep up with changing conditions. Evolution has no direction simply because it it, to put it metaphorically, gropes around in the dark picking up biological bits & pieces, and gradually cobbling up species with them.
Evolution does not create. Like a handyman on a short budget, it works with whatever happens to be laying around the shop, and sometimes the results are pretty bizarre.
Perhaps an even better example of evolutions half-assed constructions are whales. Had any sort of sane consciousness been involved in their 'creation,' I don't think that they would be forced to breath air.
But the designs work until the ecosystem suffers a change, and not necessarily a major one, that will kill the species off. And incidentally, I must remind, we are a part of that vulnerable ecosystem and will one day meet the same fate as all of the life that preceded us.
And evolution'll fumble around the biological scrap heap in the corner, and shovel up something else. And therein lies it's strength and it's beauty.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 06:41:59 [Permalink]
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One can say that everybody is forged by the society it belongs too and the works of those that came before him.
As such; Darwin was Christianity. It was a big part of Darwin's society and of his personal education.
So, most probably, Darwin would have been very different from the Darwin we know without the influences of Christianity.
He may even have been unable to figure out the theory of evolution.
Now, as far the theory itself is concerned.
The nature and natural mechanisms it describes exist independently from Christianity.
Most probably, if Darwin was unable to do so, somebody else would have pieced it together at some point. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 07:10:29 [Permalink]
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Simon:
Darwin would have been very different from the Darwin we know without the influences of Christianity. |
Well, he almost certainly would have published sooner than he did. He spent many years collecting more evidence for his theory because he knew of the firestorm that would follow publication. He wanted an iron clad case. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2008 : 09:27:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Please continue to rant on |
Well, that one sentence seems to show that the following was nothing but a smoke screen:| My motivation for writing this post is not to change your minds but to give you something to think about and to test my beliefs in an open forum. |
And if he's posted the same thing twice, it's likely he's posted it more often. Google results:Run-of-the-mill forum spam, not for the purpose of opening minds. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 12:12:28 [Permalink]
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Put away your guns boys, the damage is already done. Firstly, I have raised the question of where Darwin got his ideas as a serious issue. Secondly I have shown the clear parallels between Christian and Evolutionary scenarios. Those of you who are honest thinkers will work through these questions for yourselves and likely come to the same conclusion as myself.
For the rest of you here is the bottom line. You have made a mockery of yourselves. When you defend Evolution you are defending an off shoot of Christianity. And indeed Evolution itself points to Jesus. Both Evolution and Christianity are about the transformation of one species into another. For Christianity it is the creation of the new man. Darwin's scenario begins with one member being different at birth. This follows Christianity as Jesus was different – being conceived by the Holy Spirit. In Evolution this “mutation” gives the individual an advantage in survival. Having been raised from the dead proves that Jesus was a survivor. Finally in evolution the member of a species are not like this new individual becomes “extinct”. This too follows the Christianity in that those who do not accept Jesus are lost. Please note that none of these ideas are self evident in the natural world. They are read into it by Darwin's preconceived Christian ideas.
The survival issues that face humanity are hunger, overpopulation, war, disease. Even from an evolutionary point of view if everyone became like Jesus there would be no hunger because he was able to feed people. Neither would be there be sickness, war or death. The same can not be said for Buddha, Mohamed, or Moses or anyone else one can think of. So even from an evolutionary point of view Jesus is the one.
I can only hope that the irony of this is evident to you and your “selective skepticism”.
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 12:45:02 [Permalink]
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But Darwin implied that organisms needed to feed to survive.
And so did the Bible!
My God; the man really stole everything from Christianity!
The similarities are, in reality, very limited and far stretched.
Much more difficult to argue for that the opinion that major elements from Christianity itself was 'stolen' from previous religions.
But, whatever, you did not come here to discuss honestly but to feel good about your own beliefs. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 06/13/2008 12:47:17 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 13:28:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Put away your guns boys, the damage is already done. Firstly, I have raised the question of where Darwin got his ideas as a serious issue. Secondly I have shown the clear parallels between Christian and Evolutionary scenarios. Those of you who are honest thinkers will work through these questions for yourselves and likely come to the same conclusion as myself.
For the rest of you here is the bottom line. You have made a mockery of yourselves. When you defend Evolution you are defending an off shoot of Christianity. And indeed Evolution itself points to Jesus. Both Evolution and Christianity are about the transformation of one species into another. For Christianity it is the creation of the new man. Darwin's scenario begins with one member being different at birth. This follows Christianity as Jesus was different – being conceived by the Holy Spirit. In Evolution this “mutation” gives the individual an advantage in survival. Having been raised from the dead proves that Jesus was a survivor. Finally in evolution the member of a species are not like this new individual becomes “extinct”. This too follows the Christianity in that those who do not accept Jesus are lost. Please note that none of these ideas are self evident in the natural world. They are read into it by Darwin's preconceived Christian ideas.
The survival issues that face humanity are hunger, overpopulation, war, disease. Even from an evolutionary point of view if everyone became like Jesus there would be no hunger because he was able to feed people. Neither would be there be sickness, war or death. The same can not be said for Buddha, Mohamed, or Moses or anyone else one can think of. So even from an evolutionary point of view Jesus is the one.
I can only hope that the irony of this is evident to you and your “selective skepticism”.
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Holy shit, but that's reachin' for it!
Ok, you base your premise upon the resurrection of Jesus, is that correct? If it is correct, then I must ask: upon what evidence is your claim of someone in the guise of a son of God came back from the dead based on?
Never mind, I already know; you got it from the Bible. But unfortunately, that tome is filled with so many myths and, really, nonsense, that little of it apart from some archaeological references can be taken as read.
Again, the theory of Evolution has nothing to say about any belief system, and it itself, is not a belief system. The Theory of Evolution is nothing more an explanation of certain, biological facts, not some shaky dogma. And that fact alone just burns YEC asses 'round the world. For some reason, they just can't seem to deal with it. Allow me to repeat: Facts! They are what drives theoretical science.
Now, I do not believe in the Theory of Evolution, no. I merely accept it as the best explanation for certain, biological process' thus far discovered. Find me a better explanation as well supported by the evidence and I'll drop the ToE in a heartbeat, and never look back. Find me the Devonian Bunny, and I'll certainly sit down and think about it. Until that errant lagomorph, or the equivalent is produced, you have nothing but a book.
And really, even if there is a god, what makes you think that the Christian version is the only option?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 14:05:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Put away your guns boys, the damage is already done. Firstly, I have raised the question of where Darwin got his ideas as a serious issue. Secondly I have shown the clear parallels between Christian and Evolutionary scenarios. Those of you who are honest thinkers will work through these questions for yourselves and likely come to the same conclusion as myself. |
Here is the way this discussion has gone:no1nose: There are parallels between evolution and Christianity.
others: No, there aren't, for the following reasons [listed].
no1nose: There are parallels between evolution and Christianity. It is patently clear that you haven't given even an ounce of thought to this once you reached your conclusion. Your suggestion that you wish to test your own beliefs is obviously untrue.| For the rest of you here is the bottom line. You have made a mockery of yourselves. When you defend Evolution you are defending an off shoot of Christianity. |
So you think that everyone who defends evolution must be anti-Christian? You've fallen for the Big Lie, no1nose. A bunch of brutish propaganda spouted by people who intend for you to not use your God-given brain, but instead follow their pronouncements like the good little sheep that you are. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!| And indeed Evolution itself points to Jesus. Both Evolution and Christianity are about the transformation of one species into another. For Christianity it is the creation of the new man. Darwin's scenario begins with one member being different at birth. This follows Christianity as Jesus was different – being conceived by the Holy Spirit. In Evolution this “mutation” gives the individual an advantage in survival. Having been raised from the dead proves that Jesus was a survivor. Finally in evolution the member of a species are not like this new individual becomes “extinct”. This too follows the Christianity in that those who do not accept Jesus are lost. Please note that none of these ideas are self evident in the natural world. They are read into it by Darwin's preconceived Christian ideas. |
And obviously you think that by repeating yourself, you make whatever you say more true.| The survival issues that face humanity are hunger, overpopulation, war, disease. Even from an evolutionary point of view if everyone became like Jesus there would be no hunger because he was able to feed people. Neither would be there be sickness, war or death. The same can not be said for Buddha, Mohamed, or Moses or anyone else one can think of. So even from an evolutionary point of view Jesus is the one. |
This only works if you incorrectly believe that evolution is proscriptive. It is not. If all of humankind were to die out, it would be still be evolution in action. If everyone were to go to Hell, on the other hand, then Jesus and Christianity fail.| I can only hope that the irony of this is evident to you and your “selective skepticism”. |
The irony of you thinking that you're being thoughtful certainly isn't lost on me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 17:00:27 [Permalink]
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| By the way; happy birthday Dave! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 17:08:12 [Permalink]
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Why do we so rarely get honest creationists? Are there really that few of them out there?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 18:09:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Why do we so rarely get honest creationists? Are there really that few of them out there? |
Ask Michelle about cognitive dissonance again. Creationists are forced to lie to themselves all the time, so it certainly isn't surprising that they see no problem spreading obvious falsehoods to others.
And thank you, Simon! |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 18:27:53 [Permalink]
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| When you defend Evolution you are defending an off shoot of Christianity. |
Becaue you say it is, it must be so! Wow! Yo have convinced me with your imbecilic proclamations!
Idiot.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 19:20:21 [Permalink]
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[quote]Duh . . .[/quote
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 19:24:15 [Permalink]
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Your conter arguements lack any real substance. This what is left when you cut out the personal attack and straw man arguements:
Come up with something boys or I'm gone.
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
