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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2008 : 21:03:33 [Permalink]
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If the ToE was just some kind of feverish dream rather than an accurate description of what happen in nature, there is no reason why the prediction made based on the ToE would be accurate.
But they are. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2008 : 21:20:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
If the ToE was just some kind of feverish dream rather than an accurate description of what happen in nature, there is no reason why the prediction made based on the ToE would be accurate.
But they are. |
Shhhhhhhhh!
no1nose will take that as testimony that Christianity is correct.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 02:34:14 [Permalink]
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This is a reply to a question on one of the other threads. For your info.
“Incompleteness” for want of a better world is evident throughout nature. For example in physics there is the uncertainty principle. And in the natural world life is organized in way a way that prevents conscious life from being in direct contact with it ultimate source of life
Light flows to the green plants, which use light to make the food that flows to the animals. It would be an advantage for an animal to be able to make food from light the way that plants do. But there are no animals that can make food from light the way plants do.
Plants that receive their food from this ultimate source are unconscious and unseeing. There are no plants with eyes that can see or minds that can know. Life, it seems, is shielded from ever coming face to face and knowing where its life comes from. Life is divided in two. The living things that receive their “food” as light are unconscious and unseeing. And the animals that can see and think receive the “light as food” only indirectly from the food that the plants produce for them.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 04:01:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
This is a reply to a question on one of the other threads. For your info.
“Incompleteness” for want of a better world is evident throughout nature. For example in physics there is the uncertainty principle. And in the natural world life is organized in way a way that prevents conscious life from being in direct contact with it ultimate source of life
Light flows to the green plants, which use light to make the food that flows to the animals. It would be an advantage for an animal to be able to make food from light the way that plants do. But there are no animals that can make food from light the way plants do.
Plants that receive their food from this ultimate source are unconscious and unseeing. There are no plants with eyes that can see or minds that can know. Life, it seems, is shielded from ever coming face to face and knowing where its life comes from. Life is divided in two. The living things that receive their “food” as light are unconscious and unseeing. And the animals that can see and think receive the “light as food” only indirectly from the food that the plants produce for them.
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You are badly over-simplifying. Plants don't use their photosynthisis to provide food for animals; quite the contrary. They also use a vascular system to distribute nutrients and they can, and do, communicate. In brief, they have evolved and are still doing so, just like any/every other biological organism including out own species.
And some species do not require light and feed from others that have never used photosynthisis and couldn't if given the opportunity. In your spare time, look up "black smokers."
In evolution, nothing is ever 'complete,' although some organisms have been around long enough that that it might cause you to you wonder.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 10:56:59 [Permalink]
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You are badly over-simplifying. Plants don't use their photosynthisis to provide food for animals; quite the contrary. They also use a vascular system to distribute nutrients and they can, and do, communicate. In brief, they have evolved and are still doing so, just like any/every other biological organism including out own species.
And some species do not require light and feed from others that have never used photosynthisis and couldn't if given the opportunity. In your spare time, look up "black smokers." |
And you wonder why I don't reply to many of your post?
This is what a "good' response looks like.
There is a Gestalt psych term for what the mind does when it has incomplete information; it is "the closure principle". It means that, when a person is given an incomplete set of data, his mind will fill in the gaps to make a whole picture so that he can interpret it.
Quote:
The principle of closure applies when we tend to see complete figures even when part of the information is missing. Our minds react to patterns that are familiar, even though we often receive incomplete information. It is speculated this is a survival instinct, allowing us to complete the form of a predator even with incomplete information. |
Yes Darwin just filled in the gaps with a bit of twisted christianity. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 12:11:12 [Permalink]
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no1nose:
And you wonder why I don't reply to many of your post? |
So we should ignore your mistakes as unimportant, is that it? Because they aren't even important to you, is that it?
But if you base your stuff on mistakes, your premise becomes invalid.
You certainly are full of yourself, aren't you... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 13:47:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
You are badly over-simplifying. Plants don't use their photosynthisis to provide food for animals; quite the contrary. They also use a vascular system to distribute nutrients and they can, and do, communicate. In brief, they have evolved and are still doing so, just like any/every other biological organism including out own species.
And some species do not require light and feed from others that have never used photosynthisis and couldn't if given the opportunity. In your spare time, look up "black smokers." |
And you wonder why I don't reply to many of your post?
This is what a "good' response looks like.
There is a Gestalt psych term for what the mind does when it has incomplete information; it is "the closure principle". It means that, when a person is given an incomplete set of data, his mind will fill in the gaps to make a whole picture so that he can interpret it.
Quote:
The principle of closure applies when we tend to see complete figures even when part of the information is missing. Our minds react to patterns that are familiar, even though we often receive incomplete information. It is speculated this is a survival instinct, allowing us to complete the form of a predator even with incomplete information. |
Yes Darwin just filled in the gaps with a bit of twisted christianity.
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You have yet to show any such thing. And Darwin didn't fill in nearly as many gaps as he created. And sacred superstition had nothing to do with it.
And no, I don't wonder....
Black smokers, as you are evidently too obtuse/lazy to look it up for your self. Scroll down a bit to see an entire ecosystem that has never depended upon sunlight for anything.
Merely repeating something ad infinitum does not lend the statement any more weight than it had at it's first uttering. Only preachers & politicians believe otherwise, and and they use that constantly and cynically to delude their followings. Cases in point: Hitler & Bush.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2008 : 14:48:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Quote:
The principle of closure applies when we tend to see complete figures even when part of the information is missing. Our minds react to patterns that are familiar, even though we often receive incomplete information. It is speculated this is a survival instinct, allowing us to complete the form of a predator even with incomplete information. |
Yes Darwin just filled in the gaps with a bit of twisted christianity. |
And that assertion of yours obviously gives you closure. From the outside, it just looks like you're twisting evolution to fit the gaps of Christianity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2008 : 02:08:04 [Permalink]
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| But if you base your stuff on mistakes, your premise becomes invalid. |
I am making some valid points but you are knocking everything I say back.
| You have yet to show any such thing. And Darwin didn't fill in nearly as many gaps as he created. |
Is that a good things?
| And that assertion of yours obviously gives you closure. From the outside, it just looks like you're twisting evolution to fit the gaps of Christianity |
Its a new model for thinking about Darwin but I think in time people will start looking a bit harder at where he got his ideas and maybe come to the same conclusions.
Would you guys disagree with me if I said there is no such things as the supernatural? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2008 : 03:58:03 [Permalink]
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You have yet to show any such thing. And Darwin didn't fill in nearly as many gaps as he created.
Is that a good things? |
Yes! That is a very good, indeed, an excellent thing because unknowns are what drives science. And I remind, those gaps are being filled every day.
What, do you want it all laid out before you; all of the mysteries of universe pieced together just so? Then I suggest that you return to the Bible. It will quash any heretical thoughts that might infiltrate your mind.
Then you won't have to think at all. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2008 : 04:11:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
I am making some valid points but you are knocking everything I say back. |
Where have you made a valid point in between all your mistakes? Why don't you start correcting them, so maybe your "valid point" would become clear to us?
Yes. It is in the very nature of science that every answer will produce more questions.
| Its a new model for thinking about Darwin but I think in time people will start looking a bit harder at where he got his ideas and maybe come to the same conclusions. |
But you haven't demonstrated that this is where he got his ideas. So your first point is to do that.
Would you guys disagree with me if I said there is no such things as the supernatural?
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No. Your point? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2008 : 05:22:40 [Permalink]
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Would you guys disagree with me if I said there is no such things as the supernatural?
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I would, but only casually. The cosmos is huge beyond our pitiful imaginations and the number of unknowns therein are incalculable, and thus there is a remote possibility that there might be such of some sort. But the smart money will ride on never seeing a manifestation of it, the Mary-image-chasers begging to differ.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2008 : 06:35:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Its a new model for thinking about Darwin but I think in time people will start looking a bit harder at where he got his ideas and maybe come to the same conclusions. |
I think the problem here is that Darwin's ideas were simply the logical answer to the questions posed when one looks at the data. If Darwin hadn't arrived at that conclusion, it is inevitable that someone else would have. (Indeed, some people were already thinking about it at the same time Darwin was!)
Similarly, the Big Bang wasn't dreamed up because of Christian influence ("Let there be light" and all)-- even though some early proponents were ridiculed for it. Rather, the evidence all points in that direction.
Even if Darwin were influenced by Christianity, it doesn't invalidate evolutionary theory. It would just be dumb luck that the two were similar.
As it stands, though, your attempts to show influence are pretty weak. My guess is that using similar techniques, you could argue that 2007 season of the NFL was also influence by Christianity. (And it would be just as convincing.)
And on an aside:
| Would you guys disagree with me if I said there is no such things as the supernatural? |
I don't think you'd find many here who would invoke the supernatural. I, for one, certainly wouldn't disagree. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2008 : 10:15:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Its a new model for thinking about Darwin but I think in time people will start looking a bit harder at where he got his ideas and maybe come to the same conclusions. |
Even if it were true, the question becomes "so what?" The truth or falsity of a proposition doesn't depend upon the inspiration for its existence, unless that inspiration is the only way to judge its truth. We know that Darwin had plenty of wrong ideas, the modern theory of evolution is beholden to Darwin only so far as he developed the core of the theory. Many of the details he know today, he wouldn't recognize. He knew nothing, for example, of the interior of cells. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
