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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2008 : 21:20:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Who made that claim? You keep saying that I made it, but it has been clearly pointed out to you multiple times that I'm not making that claim. |
Fair enough.
Your actual claim that we "lose" because we "become them" by using techniques that Chinese Communists used is nonsensical in that it imposes an arbitrary and meaningless definition of "lose" that seems to serve no purpose except to help make an emotive but illogical argument.
It also seems to confuse different enemies from different time periods. Unless you're arguing that we "lose" against Islamic extremists by becoming Communists Chinese? 
Originally posted by Dave W.
I see conflicting claims, since you obviously have something in mind about what torture is, yourself. As far as I'm concerned, you can both make a case and defend them. |
I didn't start the thread and I don't believe I need an alternate definition of “torture” to point out that “indulgences” won't qualify. For most of the rest of the items on the list, it really depends on what degree they are applied. One could claim that waking a detainee from an afternoon nap for an interrogation was “sleep deprivation”, but no reasonable person would call that torture.
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm not aware of anyone claiming that we did interrogations at least as harsh until 2002 or so, but the problem is that the U.S. has had a history of speaking out against China's human-rights record. |
Project MKULTRA? No?
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, I was wondering where your prohibition against second-guessing the interrogators comes to an end. |
The world is full of tasks and jobs where I feel no specific need to micro-manage the doings of people who have put far more thought and training in than I ever will. If some military interrogator with decades of experience in extracting information believes keeping Khalid Shaikh Mohammed awake for a day or two is likely to produce life-saving information, then I'm okay with letting him do that. If you extrapolate that into an affirmation that genital mutilation or burying people alive is okay, well that better describes the workings your mind than it does mine.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Your earlier statement was a broad and unqualified endorsement of allowing interrogators to do whatever they want so long as they think it's necessary to get useful information. |
No. It wasn't.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Is there some line [i]between sleep deprivation and entombment across which you think interrogators should never cross?
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That's the issue, isn't it? The discussion should be about where the line is, not a knee-jerk condemnation of all interrogations.
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| Edited by - Mycroft on 07/08/2008 01:10:37 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 23:27:13 [Permalink]
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Mycroft said:
Your actual claim that we "lose" because we "become them" by using techniques that Chinese Communists used is nonsensical in that it imposes an arbitrary and meaningless definition of "lose" that seems to serve no purpose except to help make an emotive but illogical argument.
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If you become a thing you despise, then you have certainly lost the battle against that thing. How could it be otherwise?
| It also seems to confuse different enemies from different time periods. Unless you're arguing that we "lose" against Islamic extremists by becoming Communists Chinese? |
OH! OH! OH! I can play this game better than you!
So, you are saying that its ok to be last year's "Enemy Of America(TM)" when fighting this year's "Enemy Of America(TM)"? Last year's despicable behavior is in fashion this year, just like bellbottoms are back in style?
Are your ethics really so fluid? What behavior will you find acceptable next year? Are you going to go on record and say that JonnyMac should stop bitching about the permanent disability he has due to the "enhanced interogation" he had to endure back in the day? Just raise your gdamned arms Jonny! That fucking pussy... A couple of broken bones aren't torture, that shit heals!
Or maybe you could take a moment to collect your thoughts, recognize that the topic of this thread is the blatant hypocrisy of our government, and acknowledge that we have no business doing any of the things on that list to people we take prisoner.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 01:08:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
If you become a thing you despise, then you have certainly lost the battle against that thing. How could it be otherwise? |
How could it be period? The assertion makes no logical sense except in a kinda fuzzy emotive way.
We have not become Chinese Communists. If some of our practices are the same, it is because we face some of the same problems, but that applies the same as to road building or energy production as it would to interrogation.
Originally posted by Dude
OH! OH! OH! I can play this game better than you!
So, you are saying that its ok to be last year's "Enemy Of America(TM)" when fighting this year's "Enemy Of America(TM)"? Last year's despicable behavior is in fashion this year, just like bellbottoms are back in style? |
No, I did not say that. Nor did I say anything you could extrapolate that from.
What I did say is that Islamic extremists are a different enemy than were Chinese Communists.
Originally posted by Dude
Are your ethics really so fluid? |
Nor did I say anything to indicate my ethics are fluid.
You seem to be reading a great deal into simple disagreement. Just because I find your reasoning poorly founded doesn't mean I believe all these outrageous things you make up.
Originally posted by Dude
What behavior will you find acceptable next year? Are you going to go on record and say that JonnyMac should stop bitching about the permanent disability he has due to the "enhanced interogation" he had to endure back in the day? Just raise your gdamned arms Jonny! That fucking pussy... A couple of broken bones aren't torture, that shit heals! |
I will simply ignore this incoherent rant.
Originally posted by Dude
Or maybe you could take a moment to collect your thoughts, recognize that the topic of this thread is the blatant hypocrisy of our government...
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There is nothing in your OP to indicate hypocrisy was the issue, you only added that later.
But even so, you haven't even demonstrated hypocrisy. You've only asserted it.
Originally posted by Dude
…and acknowledge that we have no business doing any of the things on that list to people we take prisoner. |
Anything? Have you even read the list? Item 5 is occasional indulgences. You're saying we can't even be nice to someone we interrogate?
Or how about item 6, demonstrating “omniscience.” That's a standard police ploy everywhere to convince the suspect they already know all the details so there is nothing left to hide. You're claiming an interrogator cant even do that?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 07:26:53 [Permalink]
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Mycroft said:
You seem to be reading a great deal into simple disagreement. Just because I find your reasoning poorly founded doesn't mean I believe all these outrageous things you make up.
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Ohhh... so you don't like it either!
Well, you did start this game. Just indicate that you want to move it back to a discussion of hypocrisy and stop doing it yourself. No point in speaking to you further until you do, except to see who can build the best strawman.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 09:23:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
I didn't start the thread... |
Irrelevant.| ...and I don't believe I need an alternate definition of “torture”... |
Seems to me that it simply needs a definition, not necessarily an "alternate" definition.| ...to point out that “indulgences” won't qualify. |
You said that "most" aren't torture.| For most of the rest of the items on the list, it really depends on what degree they are applied. |
Shifting of the goalposts.| One could claim that waking a detainee from an afternoon nap for an interrogation was “sleep deprivation”, but no reasonable person would call that torture. |
Red herring.I wasn't aware that said research project actually carried out any interrogations, but I'm not aware of any of the particulars of the project anyway. Perhaps you could discuss the interrogations carried out under MK ULTRA, and whether or not they resulted in useful information.| The world is full of tasks and jobs where I feel no specific need to micro-manage the doings of people who have put far more thought and training in than I ever will. If some military interrogator with decades of experience in extracting information believes keeping Khalid Shaikh Mohammed awake for a day or two is likely to produce life-saving information, then I'm okay with letting him do that. If you extrapolate that into an affirmation that genital mutilation or burying people alive is okay, well that better describes the workings your mind than it does mine. |
As I said that I was wondering where you draw the line. Apparently, you'd prefer not to say.Originally posted by Dave W.
Your earlier statement was a broad and unqualified endorsement of allowing interrogators to do whatever they want so long as they think it's necessary to get useful information. |
No. It wasn't. |
Ah, okay. You weren't using "sleep deprivation" as an example of any of a number of techniques, you were specifically talking about only sleep deprivation.| That's the issue, isn't it? The discussion should be about where the line is, not a knee-jerk condemnation of all interrogations. |
There was no condemnation of interrogations, there was a condemnation of torture. Surely the two aren't the same, are they? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 09:38:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Mycroft said:
You seem to be reading a great deal into simple disagreement. Just because I find your reasoning poorly founded doesn't mean I believe all these outrageous things you make up.
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Ohhh... so you don't like it either!
Well, you did start this game. Just indicate that you want to move it back to a discussion of hypocrisy and stop doing it yourself. No point in speaking to you further until you do, except to see who can build the best strawman.
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Oh please.
That it might be considered hypocrisy was Dave W's contribution, not yours. If you want to discuss it, feel free. I've made numerous comments on it that have been passed by in favor of gainsaying and straw-man building.
I'm guessing you were looking for positive affirmations and not actual discussion. My apologies. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 09:43:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Torture is as torture does. Would anyone here like to spend an extended period in isolation with too cold/warm tempertures? Would you like to try and sleep with New Age Rock crap blaring from a remote speaker for a week or two, or many, whilst getting buckets of ice water poured on you? Or be bound in an uncomfortable position for a long while? None of this leaves blood on the floor, but it is torture never the less, and just because it has been done for centuries by various authorities does not excuse it nor make it in any way moral. |
That we wouldn't like something isn't proof that it's not appropriate for a government to do them from time to time. I don't like getting traffic tickets or being taxed, but that doesn't mean the government shouldn't do these things. I wouldn't want to be hand-cuffed and arrested, but it would be nonsensical for me to say the police should never do this to a suspect.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that it's okay to do these things, only that saying I wouldn't like it if it were done to me is not a valid argument.
Originally posted by filthy
I have an hypothsis that says that anyone who indulges in the torture of any sort to anything is quite likely a sort of sexual pervert who gets off on it. |
This may be good for chuckles on the playground, but that's all it's good for.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 11:52:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
Torture is as torture does. Would anyone here like to spend an extended period in isolation with too cold/warm tempertures? Would you like to try and sleep with New Age Rock crap blaring from a remote speaker for a week or two, or many, whilst getting buckets of ice water poured on you? Or be bound in an uncomfortable position for a long while? None of this leaves blood on the floor, but it is torture never the less, and just because it has been done for centuries by various authorities does not excuse it nor make it in any way moral. |
That we wouldn't like something isn't proof that it's not appropriate for a government to do them from time to time. I don't like getting traffic tickets or being taxed, but that doesn't mean the government shouldn't do these things. I wouldn't want to be hand-cuffed and arrested, but it would be nonsensical for me to say the police should never do this to a suspect.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that it's okay to do these things, only that saying I wouldn't like it if it were done to me is not a valid argument.
Originally posted by filthy
I have an hypothsis that says that anyone who indulges in the torture of any sort to anything is quite likely a sort of sexual pervert who gets off on it. |
This may be good for chuckles on the playground, but that's all it's good for.
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Quite frankly, I loath and despise my current government for even considering tactics such as the previously described used in interrogations, and would like little better than to see their sponsers stripped of office and jailed for them. They have disgraced the nation and indeed, the civilized world. Just because some foreign barbarians use them does not give license for us to do the same.
As for the sexual pervert remark, while it was merely a casual insult tossed at the torturers, and their supporters, I'll stand by it because in many cases it's likely true.
I find myself reminded that our alledged president used to torture small animals as a child. Evidently, little has changed beyond his no longer getting his own hands dirty.
Dude is correct: we've lost the moral high ground on this.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 12:30:46 [Permalink]
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| This thread is torture! Ban it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 12:55:28 [Permalink]
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Mycroft:
There is nothing in your OP to indicate hypocrisy was the issue, you only added that later. |
Mycroft:
That it might be considered hypocrisy was Dave W's contribution, not yours. |
Our (USA on torture) hypocrisy was implied in the OP. The word may not have been used, but from the moment I read it, that was how I understood the post.
I don't know what is so difficult about the concept that what we say is unacceptable conduct by any nation, and what we actually do matters. In the case of torture, (and whether or not we have always done it) the official line has been that we don't do it. If we use torture as part of any method of interrogation, we are acting hypocritically. Why? Because we claim not to do it on the grounds that it's inhuman (based our own national morality) and not in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
This is not an emotive argument. If you require it, I can find plenty of statements by our officials, past and present, that we do not condone or partake in torture. And I can also provide specific examples of when we have tortured, by official decree not meant for the general publics eyes.
If our government claims not to torture, but does so anyway, they are liars and hypocrites. That is, unless you consider purposely blowing smoke up the publics ass as a legitimate and ethical behavior. (I suppose a case could be made that it's perfectly okay to do that under certain circumstances. I would argue that it is not okay if we want our government to maintain any credibility in the publics eye, which has at least in part been tarnished by this very issue.)
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2008 : 01:08:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Either you're just playing games or you really need to step up your critical reading skills. Do you honestly think filthy meant to imply that he thinks anything he doesn't like is torture?
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That's how he phrased his argument.
Originally posted by Ricky
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were just using hyperbole. But I believe that it is safe to assume that the "level" would be one high enough to convice a person to betray his friends, country, and (or) core beliefs.
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That almost sounds like being effective is evidence that the interrogation methods are too severe. I'm gonna guess that's not what you meant to say.
My issue here is that if there is to be a public debate about what is or is not acceptable, that you don't take things like that for granted, and you don't make blanket prohibitions.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2008 : 07:04:03 [Permalink]
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| That's how he phrased his argument. |
That is how you interpreted my argument.
Were you ever called upon to remain awake for a couple or three days at a stretch? I have, as have many service personnel. After a while, you start to hallucinate. I've been on cold-water salvage jobs where my hands and feet became so immobile that I had to be lifted out of the water on a stage, and brother, thawing out hurts. A lot! I would not wish it on someone else.
I repeat, torture is as torture does, and the only thing that differs in these examples is that I was allowed to finally sleep; and that I was sent below decks to warm up, off duty for at least 12 hours before having to do it again. Were I a prisoner in Bush's Gitmo Gulag, that might not, and indeed, wouldn't be the case.
All torturers and their enablers are the scum of the earth, bar none.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2008 : 13:44:28 [Permalink]
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On a related note: How Many Motherfuckers Does It Take to Screw a Light Bulb Into a Detainee's Rectum? (Part 1: Michael Mukasey):
Our bespectacled dwarf of justice, Michael Mukasey, was lubriciously tongue-bathed during his time at the American Enterprise Institute even as he was saying, in essence,"You know that Constitution you think's so cool, America? Yeah, I want Congress to help me roll it up and shove it into your dry koochie." The Attorney General spent his speech yesterday reacting to the Supreme Court's Boumediene decision saying that Gitmo detainees had the right to challenge their detention. |
Who'da thunk that when Bush nominated this conservative idiot for Attorney General that he would turn out to be, well, a conservative idiot in true & treasonous adhearance to his official line; an aryan Gonzalas who does what he's told.
What? Everybody? You don't tell me....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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We lose, because we have become "them"
