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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2008 : 09:47:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
There are more than threats of physical violence.
There are diplomatic, political, and economical sanctions that the US Government could use. And USA still have a number of nations marching lock-step to its beat, that could also weigh in to cause trouble.
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Collectively, these measures are called diplomacy. If they are moral or not typically has less to do with the actions themselves than with your agreement with the issue being pressed.
We can certainly speculate if the US is willing to use these measures to push this issue. My opinion is that little if anything would be done by this lame-duck administration. There are less than four months left until November. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 09:58:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
The US is not going to invade Switzerland. |
Given the context, yours is an absurd statement, mostly because it completely misses the point. You seem to be forcing a semantic argument, and so I'll remind you that "is not" and "can not" are not synonymous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 12:27:02 [Permalink]
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When I'm dictator my second priority will be to invade Switzerland, for spite.
The first priority is to make sure all pizza toppoings go on top of the cheese, naturally. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 12:54:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
When I'm dictator my second priority will be to invade Switzerland, for spite.
The first priority is to make sure all pizza toppoings go on top of the cheese, naturally.
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You are going to put food on your family, then! Excellent!
Invade Switzerland for the chocolate; the spite can come after the Swiss organize into splintered and impossible to eradicate guerilla groups viciously disrupting the flow of that chocolate.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2008 : 11:06:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
The US is not going to invade Switzerland. |
Given the context, yours is an absurd statement, mostly because it completely misses the point. You seem to be forcing a semantic argument, and so I'll remind you that "is not" and "can not" are not synonymous.
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You seem to see a distinction where I don't. The US will not invade Switzerland. Does it matter if we have the physical ability? If you think so, please explain it to me, because I'm puzzled by your reasoning.
What's absurd about saying the US will not invade Switzerland? It's been almost three weeks now, has the US made any threats against Switzerland in that time? |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 08/10/2008 11:07:52 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2009 : 09:21:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
The US is not going to invade Switzerland. |
Given the context, yours is an absurd statement, mostly because it completely misses the point. You seem to be forcing a semantic argument, and so I'll remind you that "is not" and "can not" are not synonymous.
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You seem to see a distinction where I don't. The US will not invade Switzerland. Does it matter if we have the physical ability? If you think so, please explain it to me, because I'm puzzled by your reasoning.
What's absurd about saying the US will not invade Switzerland? It's been almost three weeks now, has the US made any threats against Switzerland in that time?
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Just pointing out that the Bush administration has passed without invading Switzerland. Now let's wait and see if the Obama administration can refrain from doing so as well.
Since "is not" and "can not" are not synonymous, I suppose that means that since the Obama administration has essentially the same capabilities as the Bush administration, then it's still a worry.
Right? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 01:54:45 [Permalink]
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It's a matter of attitude.
Bush pretty much told everyone that he'll screw them if they don't conform to his wishes.
Obama have thus far given me the impression that he has the facility to communicate with people he disagrees with. He seems to understand that you don't always get what you want by waving your dick around.
A little give-and-take doesn't necessarily mean give'em bullets and take their stuff.
Dismantling the blight Guantanamo Torture Centre is a step in the right direction. Cancelling the Patriot Act and restoring Habeas Corpus would also be progress.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 06:27:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's a matter of attitude.
Bush pretty much told everyone that he'll screw them if they don't conform to his wishes.
Obama have thus far given me the impression that he has the facility to communicate with people he disagrees with. He seems to understand that you don't always get what you want by waving your dick around.
A little give-and-take doesn't necessarily mean give'em bullets and take their stuff.
Dismantling the blight Guantanamo Torture Centre is a step in the right direction. Cancelling the Patriot Act and restoring Habeas Corpus would also be progress.
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Is that what we did with Switzerland? We gave them bullets and took their stuff?
Or did it not turn out that way? Did it, perhaps, turn out more like I had predicted? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 14:04:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Is that what we did with Switzerland? We gave them bullets and took their stuff?
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No, but Iraq.
And with Obama, the risk to Switzerland (or Sweden) is less than with Bush or McCain at the helm. Or god forbid, Palin.
Or did it not turn out that way? Did it, perhaps, turn out more like I had predicted?
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Please remind me, what did you predict?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 21:09:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
No, but Iraq. |
An important aspect of the point I was trying to make is that Iraq is not the same as Switzerland.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
And with Obama, the risk to Switzerland (or Sweden) is less than with Bush or McCain at the helm. Or god forbid, Palin. |
The risk was zero, is currently zero, and will continue to be zero for decades to come.
That's zero with Obama, zero with McCain, zero with Bush, and even zero with Palin. Zeros all around. Nobody wants to invade Switzerland.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Please remind me, what did you predict? |
I predicted that the US would not invade Switzerland. |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 03/20/2009 21:11:48 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 21:20:12 [Permalink]
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And for a relevant news article on the topic:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123694252262918343.html?mod=
Switzerland, the world's largest offshore tax haven, said it will relax its bank secrecy laws to cooperate with international tax probes, in an effort to escape a potential crackdown on countries that protect tax evaders.
The move helped along a sudden trend among havens of banking secrecy: The Swiss decision was mirrored Friday by Austria and Luxembourg, two other European countries with strong bank secrecy laws. It followed similar decisions by the European principalities of Lichtenstein and Andorra a day earlier.
<snip>
Mr. Merz said the pressure on Switzerland intensified on March 5, when the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development prepared an updated list of uncooperative tax havens, for presentation at the April 2 summit of the leaders of the Group of 20 countries. The G-20 nations, whose finance ministers are meeting this weekend, are expected to discuss possible sanctions on banking centers that fail to provide legal assistance with international tax probes.
Switzerland was on the new OECD blacklist, Mr. Merz said. Faced with the threat of sanctions, Mr. Merz met with finance ministers from Austria and Luxembourg. The time was ripe for change, Mr. Merz told reporters, but he said that if Switzerland had dropped bank secrecy on its own, "all the money would fly away." He declined to say what proportion of the estimated $2 trillion in foreign assets held in Switzerland he now expects to be withdrawn. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 21:31:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It's troubling...
How many Americans realize the reason why so many non-Americans fear (and hate because they fear) USA?
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So just who is this shadowy and powerful Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development? Is it some neocon cabel flexing its international might on behalf of the USA? Is it a resurrected Project for a New American Century?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD
http://www.oecd.org/home/0,2987,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
Oh, it turns out to be a European organization that just happened to have succeeded in doing something the Bush administration tried to do six months ago.
I predict they will not be feared and hated for it. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2009 : 02:07:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
No, but Iraq. |
An important aspect of the point I was trying to make is that Iraq is not the same as Switzerland. |
So Bush's "either with us or against us" was just empty rhetoric?
And here I thought not giving a shit about taking sides put me squarely on the "against us" side.
He went after Iraq against better judgment, and on bogus made up charges, and despite UN reports that Iraq posed no threat. Especially not to USA. That puts him and USA on the "Axes of Evil" side of the conflict between good and evil. Making bogus charges against Switzerland, how absurd it may seem, couldn't have been ruled out with that idiot as president. Of course, it's hard to park an oceanic battle-group outside the border of Switzerland, but Sweden do have a long coast line and borders cairly close to NATO-allied Norway's fjords for easy access.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2009 : 02:30:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Oh, it turns out to be a European organization that just happened to have succeeded in doing something the Bush administration tried to do six months ago.
I predict they will not be feared and hated for it.
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That's exactly how it should be.
OECD is an international organization of 30 democratic countries, where Switzerland (and Luxembourg mentioned in an article above) is a member. Not some lone big bully with delusion of Greatness swinging his dick around.
Of all the founding members of OECD, USA is the least democratic nation as it has the lowest election turnout in its most recent election.
Of added members USA qualified below Czech Repubic for example (which had a 64% election turnout). Only Hungaria, Poland, and Slovakia did worse (I don't know about Mexico).
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 03/21/2009 02:32:23 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2009 : 20:17:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
So Bush's "either with us or against us" was just empty rhetoric? |
No, of course it wasn't, it was a very strongly worded statement of intent that preceded war, but it doesn't apply here.
Let me refresh your memory on history and context:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/ret.bush.coalition/index.html
There is no room for neutrality in the war against terrorism, and the international coalition against terror will "fight this evil and fight until we are rid of it," President Bush said Tuesday.
In a joint news conference with French President Jacques Chirac, Bush said coalition partners in the fight against terrorism would be called on to back up their support with action.
He would deliver that message in a speech Saturday to the United Nations, Bush said.
"A coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy; a coalition partner must perform," Bush said. "That means different things for different nations. Some nations don't want to contribute troops and we understand that. Other nations can contribute intelligence sharing. ... But all nations, if they want to fight terror, must do something."
Bush said he would not point out any specific countries when he speaks to the UN.
"Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." |
Strongly worded? Yes. Too strongly? Arguably, perhaps. But is there anything in there that can be interpreted to mean ”we will go to war with Switzerland if they continue to provide baking services for internet gambling companies”? Absolutely not, the suggestion is ludicrous.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
And here I thought not giving a shit about taking sides put me squarely on the "against us" side. |
Taking sides in…what?
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
He went after Iraq against better judgment, and on bogus made up charges, and despite UN reports that Iraq posed no threat. Especially not to USA. |
Mostly true, but it's not as though there were no reasons at all to go to war with Iraq. It's not at all a decision I agree with, but if I were an Iraqi, I'd certainly be glad of it today.
As a US citizen, however, I wish we had spent our resources elsewhere.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
That puts him and USA on the "Axes of Evil" side of the conflict between good and evil. |
That's a puzzling statement. Do you believe in a literal metaphysical conflict between good and evil?
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Making bogus charges against Switzerland, how absurd it may seem… |
If you think anyone was making bogus charges against Switzerland, then you need to re-read the article this thread was based on:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121486342353917387.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
That's exactly how it should be.
OECD is an international organization of 30 democratic countries, where Switzerland (and Luxembourg mentioned in an article above) is a member. Not some lone big bully with delusion of Greatnes |
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US trying to push its law everywhere?
