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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 18:38:02 [Permalink]
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If I recall correctly, bngbuck's first foray into our midst was to discuss this same topic--alien visitation. And far as I can see, he hasn't picked up the slightest understanding of critical thinking in all the time he's been here. Old dogs and new tricks, I suppose.
Which isn't to say I think he's a bad guy. He does occasionally add useful contributions to some posts. But trying to hold a discussion with bngbuck is about as useful as wrestling with a tar baby. I think he relishes the opportunity to engage in verbal combat more than he cares about thinking critically. He just really isn't interested in skepticism and likely never will be.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2011 : 20:17:02 [Permalink]
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| I think someone (Stephen Hawking?) said recently that if ET's come to our planet, they would probably bring a virus which would kill us all (similar to what happened to the Native Americans). Someone else pointed out that if their are ET's, then it is unlikely they have made it to Earth given the size of the universe and the time it takes to travel in the universe. (Sorry, I can't remember who said this. I tend to have random information floating in my head but unfortunately becomes detached from corresponding random information) |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 20:23:23 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
I think he relishes the opportunity to engage in verbal combat more than he cares about thinking critically.
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Yep.
bng said:
| I was hopeful that you would eventually come around to my view on this matter, and I welcome you to the ranks of those with slightly more open minds on subjects that are genuinely controversial!. |
Well, since this has been my position on fast travel since well before I knew who you were, I'm not really sure what you mean. I don't think FTL is possible, but I don't think our physics can currently exclude it. That makes me an agnostic on the issue of FTL.
The problem you are having here is simple, you are using a different definition of agnosticism than anyone else. When you say you are agnostic about something you mean you think it could be possible. When the rest of us say we are agnostic about something we mean that there isn't enough evidence to make a rational judgement on the issue one way or another.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 20:43:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave.....
| So you think I should build an argument from popularity? |
Nothing to do with popularity Simply some substantiation from those who are better informed than you or I as to the validity of seeing Mitchell as a crank! |
Phil Plait would be too polite to accuse Mitchell of being a crank...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 07:07:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
It is cetainly possible that silicon, for example, might be not only more abundant but also more accessible on another planet with the gravity and density acceptable to life.
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But silicon is easily accessible on earth. It's practically everywhere. More than 25% of earth's crust in weight.
This might lead to a silicon-based expression of life on that particular rock for example.. |
The silicon element is in the same period as carbon, and could theoretically take carbon's place i biotic substances. However, carbon and silicon do have chemical differences. For one, the silicon atom is a lot larger than carbon. This affects the geometric configuration of complex molecules. Polymers aren't as strong as carbon-based ones, and it has trouble creating double-bonds.
If silicon based life was possible, the exuberant access to silicon here on earth should be enough to enable a silicon based abiogenesis. But silicon based amino-acid like substances are rare, partly because of the "physical" properties of the atom.
Where ever there's carbon, silicon will lose the race to form self-replicating macromolecules.
| Also, another question is FTL-travel. Physics as we know it does not support this. Given that most advancements in physics the last 100 years have been refinements of already known natural laws.... |
Quantuum mechanics and a great deal of particle theory weren't ! |
True, but neither particle theory nor quantum mechanics changed the natural laws which govern taking us from one place to the other (besides strapping an A-bomb on our butt to get the extra kick when picking up the pace (insert cartoon image here)).
Quantum mechanics and particle physics govern the micro-world. But we're not living in the micro-world. We're macro beings. Just like the macroscopic mouse on the surface of the sun, we cannot depend on quantum mechanics to transport ourselves just as little as the mouse can to survive. The world simply doesn't work that way.
| The simpler explanation is that people who claimed that saw space ships and aliens were hallucinating. |
Yes, Occam's pocket knife carves a bit cruder than do his sugical tools.
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Reality can be harsh sometimes... 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 08:11:03 [Permalink]
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Anywhere you find silicon you are probably going to find carbon. Carbon, being capable of many more reactions than silicon, is going to have a better chance at being the primary biological element.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 20:41:28 [Permalink]
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bng said (a few days back):
....meaning, I agree with you Dude, there is no proof that fairies are not responsible for gravity, and there is no proof that they are. There is only a supposition that it is extremely unlikely that such a preposterous situation could exist!
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/yoda
Having a problem you are, see it now I do!
/yoda
What possible basis do you have for assigning any probability to the existence of gravity fairies? If I say they are real, and there is no evidence and no possible falsification, what degree of arrogance must you possess to think you can assign ANY degree of probability to their actual existence?
I'd like to see your math. Because from what I can tell you are basing your thinking on a flawed and outdated philosophy where you are allowed to erroneously pontificate, pull random shit out of your ass, and state with certitude that you have analyzed the statistical probability of gravity fairies and your conclusion is some vague bullshit "extremely unlikely".
I want a specific probability from you and I would like you to share your math and what you are basing your calculations on.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 00:28:26 [Permalink]
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Mabuse.....
If silicon based life was possible, the exuberant access to silicon here on earth should be enough to enable a silicon based abiogenesis. But silicon based amino-acid like substances are rare, partly because of the "physical" properties of the atom.
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| Where ever there's carbon, silicon will lose the race to form self-replicating macromolecules. |
Yes. My point was that it might be possible on Planet X which had sufficient size and density to permit the mechanics of life (as we now understand it) that silicon would be abundant (as it is on Earth) but carbon might be scarce. From Earth's biodiversity it appears there is some kind of "drive" (no woo intended) for life to conform to widely varying conditions. If carbon is abundant, there will very likely be carbon-based life. If no, or very little, carbon on Planet X, it may be possible that abiogenesis develops from silicon.
Please, only a wild hair speculation. Not a carefully thought-out theory or anything. Probably has a million holes in it. I fully realize I have far too much imagination and not nearly enough rock-solid "Critical Thinking" discipline, and I no longer present myself as a Skeptic, with all the honors and privileges attendent to the degree.
You, Kil, and of course Dave have offered anple evidence that I am not, in the truest sense of the word, a Skeptic. Dude, with his endless penchant for vituperation and derogaton, is a little less persuasive in his "decrepit, sad, losing his faculties" arguments, but hey, that's what floats his particular boat - so what the hell.
You guys are right, I'm not anything near a Skeptic in your rigid definition of the word, so to the degree that I decide to stay around here annoying you, don't throw it at me anymore. I am truly becoming a Tired Old Man, and the thing I genuinely envy in you kids is the energy and strength of Youth. AS GBS once said, "so sad that youth is wasted on the young." |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 00:37:35 [Permalink]
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| Humbert Thanks! I really, really like all the attention! I am certainly plenty critical, something of a Thinker, but in no way a "Critical Thinker" in the catechism definition of the phrase. "Critical Thinking" is likely not my forté so no further argument there! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 04:00:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I fully realize I have far too much imagination and not nearly enough rock-solid "Critical Thinking" discipline |
False dichotomy fallacy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 23:39:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
What possible basis do you have for assigning any probability to the existence of gravity fairies?
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Because from what I can tell you are basing your thinking on a flawed and outdated philosophy where you are allowed to erroneously pontificate, pull random shit out of your ass,...
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Indeed. There are an infinite number of hypotheses for what causes gravity, meaning that each one has an a priori probability of zero (or, more correctly I suppose, infinitely low).
But I would also love to see bngbuck try to assign a probability to the hypothesis. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 13:20:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Mabuse.....
If silicon based life was possible, the exuberant access to silicon here on earth should be enough to enable a silicon based abiogenesis. But silicon based amino-acid like substances are rare, partly because of the "physical" properties of the atom.
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| Where ever there's carbon, silicon will lose the race to form self-replicating macromolecules. |
Yes. My point was that it might be possible on Planet X which had sufficient size and density to permit the mechanics of life (as we now understand it) that silicon would be abundant (as it is on Earth) but carbon might be scarce. From Earth's biodiversity it appears there is some kind of "drive" (no woo intended) for life to conform to widely varying conditions. If carbon is abundant, there will very likely be carbon-based life. If no, or very little, carbon on Planet X, it may be possible that abiogenesis develops from silicon.
Please, only a wild hair speculation. Not a carefully thought-out theory or anything. Probably has a million holes in it. I fully realize I have far too much imagination and not nearly enough rock-solid "Critical Thinking" discipline, and I no longer present myself as a Skeptic, with all the honors and privileges attendent to the degree.
You, Kil, and of course Dave have offered anple evidence that I am not, in the truest sense of the word, a Skeptic. Dude, with his endless penchant for vituperation and derogaton, is a little less persuasive in his "decrepit, sad, losing his faculties" arguments, but hey, that's what floats his particular boat - so what the hell.
You guys are right, I'm not anything near a Skeptic in your rigid definition of the word, so to the degree that I decide to stay around here annoying you, don't throw it at me anymore. I am truly becoming a Tired Old Man, and the thing I genuinely envy in you kids is the energy and strength of Youth. AS GBS once said, "so sad that youth is wasted on the young."
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So you aren't going to answer my question?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 14:38:25 [Permalink]
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bngbuck said (in the other retarded thread in this folder):
As you know, I subscribe to the global position that all knowledge is provisional, and even in its most refined form can only be truly understood in degrees of probability. Some here have asked for my mathematical evaluation of certain concepts (green fairies or other fantasticals) This is a misunderstanding of my position. No mathematician can compute a precise statistical probability of that which is affected by a very large number of variables. As to the probability of green fairies, etc., this form of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or point of a needle, per Thomas Acquinas), dating back to the 16th century, can only be answered by "a fractional number very close to infinity."
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Bolding and italics added by me.
First, the bolded portion: But this is exactly what you did. You assigned a probability to the existence of gravity fairies. Yet you say it is impossible? (not to mention that it is inconsistent for you to declare anything impossible) I actually understand your position perfectly here, and what I'm telling you is that you are wrong. Gravity fairies are some random bullshit a person made up to illustrate untestable claims! Yet you have the arrogance to assign their actual existence a probability greater than zero.
What I want from you is for you to show your work. Give me the mathematical model that lets you predict ANY probability for the existence of gravity fairies. I'm not asking for precision, just for a generalization. Estimate or guess where you have to, leave some variables out (just note that they might need to be considered). Reproduce for me the method you use to reach your conclusion here, in as much detail as you can.
Or admit you are wrong.
Then, on to Saint Tommy: Too bad every one of his arguments has been demolished. As for "a fractional number very close to infinity" (did you mean to say "a fractional number very close to zero"?), I'm still waiting to see your math, because as Hawks pointed out to you, the actual probability is zero.
You don't get to arbitrarily assign probabilities and then run from defending your conclusion (well, you can, it just means that you admit you are incapable of defending your conclusion, which is an admission of error).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 03/01/2011 14:39:12 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 08:49:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Mabuse.....
If silicon based life was possible, the exuberant access to silicon here on earth should be enough to enable a silicon based abiogenesis. But silicon based amino-acid like substances are rare, partly because of the "physical" properties of the atom.
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| Where ever there's carbon, silicon will lose the race to form self-replicating macromolecules. |
Yes. My point was that it might be possible on Planet X which had sufficient size and density to permit the mechanics of life (as we now understand it) that silicon would be abundant (as it is on Earth) but carbon might be scarce. |
And I'll have to repeat that the mechanics producing dust clouds from which planets are formed, precludes your scenario where a carbonless silicon rich planet forms.
If carbon is abundant, there will very likely be carbon-based life. If no, or very little, carbon on Planet X, it may be possible that abiogenesis develops from silicon. |
We have very little carbon on planet earth compared silicon. While we do have micro organisms that use silicon, silicon is not present in the biotic processes because silicon cannot form biotic macromolecules.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:41:32 [Permalink]
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Gravity, n.
That which holds the objects within the Universe together and even draws them toward each other with often spectacular results. It is the bane of aeronauts, wire-walkers, errant asteroids and small children.
Gravity is most commonly measured with a bathroom scale.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Moon-walker claims alien contact cover-up
