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just_some_guy
New Member
19 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2008 : 14:50:05 [Permalink]
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Honestly I dont want to plug anyone, Im not even 100% decided on anything other then I dont want to vote for democrat or republican. I can almost safely say that if I dont get out and vote for a 3rd party or just get pissed off enough to do a write in as a protest I wont get out and vote.
I understand that alot people consider 3rd party voting a spoiler, I dont see how that even applies to me.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 15:07:07 [Permalink]
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Then for prez/VP, write in the Snuffy Smith/Abner Yokum ticket and then give serious thought to the congressional and state candidates. These are equally important.
I found myself in the same quandry in the Nixon/McGovern election.
However, do not forget that the president does the Supreme Court picks and there are going to be at least two open seats on that bench for the next administration to fill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 15:14:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Probably Bob Barr, the libertarian guy.
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I remember him from the old days on CNN Crossfire...he's a pig.  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 15:59:14 [Permalink]
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The consequences of not voting are similar to those of voting third party.
If you don't want to see another republican admin, get out and vote for the dem.
Keep in mind that McCain's top economic advisor is the guy who got the laws passed to deregulate oil future trading and banking. The blame for the mortgage and gas crisis lies with ex-Senator Graham. Likely to end up the sec. Treasury in a McCain admin.
So if $8/gallon gas is your thing, stay home, don't vote, or vote third party, or worse.. vote McCain.
You list "socialized" medicine as one reason not to vote for a democrat. Can you cite an example in any of our western allies where "socialized" medicine has turned out to be a negative?
As for "eco laws", the clock is ticking. The evidence says we don't have time to wait for an "informed free market" to figure it out. Such a beast is just as mythical as any of the crazy's dieties anyhow. One has never existed, and there is no evidence to suggest it would be a good thing if it were created. China is getting close to a "free maket", and look at the havoc they are wreaking on us with poisonous and defective products in the last two years.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 21:07:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
JSG.....
Dude is right. This time (2008), no thinking person could possibly vote anything but a solid Democratic ticket. Not because the Democrats are vastly "better' than the Republicans, they are not. Generally, and in recent times, they tend to be marginally less obsessed with power and promotion of self-serving political causes than the GOP, but there have been horribly bad examples of Democratic politics at all levels in the past, and there have been a few reasonably responsible Republicans.
But this bullshit that we have been enduring under the Bush administration is unprecedented in my lifetime (nearly eighty years).
The Republican brand has been appropriated by a group of neo-fascists, who are hell-bent on a program to give nearly dictatorial power to the Republican in the Chief Executive office - whose agenda is dictated almost exclusively by the mega-rich and big, big business and corporate interests.
The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus, and most of the legal structures upon which this country was founded are in serious danger of being dismantled in favor of rule by executive fiat - currently exemplified by Dick Cheney and George Bush.
The same very rich and powerful forces that placed Bush and Cheney in power will unquestionably govern McCain if he and a Republican Congress are elected. He may have been a "maverick" as a Senator, but he will be a puppet as President! Because with control of the White House and Congress, the political dynamic will not change from what we have had for the past eight years. The same power bases will exert the same overwhelming influence in the same way they have since the year 2000.
The only thing one can be sure of with Obama, is that his administration will be starkly different than the Bush administration has been. The mere fact that he is a black intellectual will assure that! But no matter what his policies (with a Democratic Congress) may turn out to be, they will be better than the near fascism that we are approaching with the Bush neocons dictating policy!
If you must vote a third party to symbolically express to yourself your disgust with both major parties, vote for Libertarian Bob Barr; as that will have precisely the same effect as voting for Obama - it will take a vote away from McCain.Dude:
The consequences of voting third party this time around are not worth considering.
Maybe 2012 or 2016. |
By 2012 or 2016, a lot of right-wing reversal will have taken place, and it may be time to try and shake up the entrenched two-party system with a serious attempt at a third-party candidate.
But in 2008, either a Republican or a Democrat will win the White House, and we will have either an indecisive near-balanced Congress or we will have a strong Democratic Congress that will allow Obama to actually make some desperately-needed changes!
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Bob Barr is a religious whack job. As Senator, he petitioned the military to stop recognizing my religion. He then followed it up with a swath of untruths and tried to, aided by Paul Weyrich's Free Congress Association, convince Christians not to enlist in the military until Wicca was no longer allowed to be practiced.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 08:30:58 [Permalink]
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VD.....
| Bob Barr is a religious whack job. |
You know, it wouldn't matter if he were the reincarnation of Jim Jones or David Koresh, Barr couldn't garner more than a few million votes if his very life depended on it! And every one of those few million votes will be votes that would have gone to McCain because no Democrat in his right mind would vote for the asshole Barr.
He has been deeply rooted in Republican Politics since 1992, and this "Libertarian" bullshit is strictly a "notice me" ego trip like Ralph Nader's boringly repetitious presidential runs. Nader, however, steals votes from Obama that are made by stupid Liberals; whereas Barr will do precisely the same damage to the Republican McCain - those brainwashed conservative zombies that want to vote Republican but can't stomach the old McCain's non-adherence to the strict party line will vote for Barr, thinking that they are expressing their true Republicanism. Actually, they will be helping Obama by taking votes away from McCain!
But Dude still has it right. Any vote except a Democratic vote in this election, is a vote to continue the Fascist totalitarian policies of the Cheney cabal and the incomprehensible ignorance and malevolence of people like George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales, and the rest of the simpletons, thugs, and neo-Nazis that have comprised the Bush administration. Idealism has no place in the 2008 election, only pragmatism. Get the current crop of bastards out and something different in!
Maybe in 2012 or 2016 we will be able to indulge the luxury of voting on the principle that we need a three-party system, which we certainly do!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 12:12:45 [Permalink]
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Well said, buck.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 12:32:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by just_some_guy
I think I am going to vote for a 3rd party this time around....is 3rd party a waste of a vote? |
Yes. Because of...well...what bngbuck said.
Also, there is an undeniable possibility that you might in fact be pleased with some of what Obama accomplishes when in office.
On the flip side however, there is NO possibility of any real progress for the country if McCain gets in. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 17:46:29 [Permalink]
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I always have, and always will vote for the candidate that most represents my political views, AND is the one I would consider to be the best leader. The problem with third parties is that they don't measure up any better than the two dominant parties. For me, they're mostly on equal footing.
And, because of their platforms, some parties like the Republicans, and the Constitutional party they are just not logical choices for me.
I really do despise the two party system. If any third party candidates are quality leaders they are trivialized by the two majors and their surrogates in the press. The only ways to change these trends are to find a Bill Gates rich idealist to bankroll a new party, or to start from the grass roots and gain power at the local level and then expand until the national parties can nor longer control state or local politics.
The first choice is unlikely to outlive the founder and the second would require social upheaval. So, what's the answer?
Finally, I'm getting very tired of hearing about the mystical powers of free markets. As Dave brought up, free markets just don't exist. Without common sense regulation, markets will always be controlled by the most powerful entity or entities in that market. Given complete deregulation, the invisible hand becomes the iron fist of modern day fascism.
Deregulating the energy and banking markets was like giving the keys to our piggy banks to a crack head.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 19:48:26 [Permalink]
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| I don't know that free markets don't exist, I've just never seen one outside of an economist's computer simulation. Which is, I must say, a lot more evidence than I've ever seen for God, for example, but still not enough to say that markets should be or could be truly free in the real world of non-idealized actors. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 11:39:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
But for now, and until laws and regulations for political campaigning can be adjusted to be more favourable to small parties (preventing the Republican money bulldozer flattening them), a Democratic vote is more important than a third party. For now.
Democrats should be more open to political reforms...
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Democrates have no interest in a third party gaining any power in the US. They have a money bulldozer just as the republicans do. Democrates and Republicans in office do not care about political reform, the current system will keep them in office longer than any reformed system would. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 12:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
But for now, and until laws and regulations for political campaigning can be adjusted to be more favourable to small parties (preventing the Republican money bulldozer flattening them), a Democratic vote is more important than a third party. For now.
Democrats should be more open to political reforms...
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Democrates have no interest in a third party gaining any power in the US. They have a money bulldozer just as the republicans do. Democrates and Republicans in office do not care about political reform, the current system will keep them in office longer than any reformed system would.
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Agreed. I don't know how you get any real political reform in the US. However that's done, it's not through either major party. |
-Chaloobi
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 13:46:40 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
| Democrates have no interest in a third party gaining any power in the US. They have a money bulldozer just as the republicans do. Democrates and Republicans in office do not care about political reform, the current system will keep them in office longer than any reformed system would. |
Robb, much of what you say is true. However, it does not speak to the current political situation where we have just endured almost eight years of the most corrupt, ignorant, sleazy, greedy, self-serving group of political hacks, cutthroats and thieves that this country has seen in many, many years!
The Republicans HAVE GOT TO GO!! No Democrat or group of Democrats on the face of this Earth could approach the malevolence shown by the Cheneycrats! They have done enormous damage to the very essence of this country!
Idealism be damned, this time around! The Rethugs have got to go!!
Do you want to know how I really feel?
Can't write it! Kil would die of an apoplectic stroke before he finished reading the first sentence! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2008 : 14:33:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Do you want to know how I really feel?
Can't write it! Kil would die of an apoplectic stroke before he finished reading the first sentence!
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While that may be true, the good news is that I would be in full agreement with the sentiments, however colorfully they were expressed. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 23:59:38 [Permalink]
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JSM.....
How to Vote for President:
1. Vote for McCain...............Disastrously Stupid (equals vote for Bush neopolitics)
2. Vote for Nader.................God damn Stupid (almost equals vote for McCain.)
3. Vote for xxxx ..................Really Stupid (equals vote for ignorance)
4. Don't vote......................Stupid (equals vote for don't give a shit)
5. Vote for Barr...................Not too stupid (equals vote against McCain)
6. Vote for Obama...............The least stupid (equals vote for at least a fucking chance)
Notice I say Obama is the best chance! Nobody promised a rose garden, because there ain't any rose gardens! All of the rest range from some to absolute probability (certainty) of more of the same we have had for eight years!
A vote for McCain says: I like getting fucked in the ass by the Neocons!
A vote for Nader or an unknown says: I don't mind getting fucked by Neocon thugs!
A refusal to vote says: I don't care if I get fucked in the ass!
A vote for Barr says: I don't have the balls to vote for Obama, but I don't want to be fucked in the ass!
A vote for Obama says: This is the only real chance I have to not get fucked! At least not fucked hard! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 07/30/2008 00:09:59 |
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3rd party voting
