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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2008 : 13:30:18
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Hello Skeptics! Long time no see. Hope everyone is doing well.
I have a topic for discussion that I hope someone can help me shed some light on.
Several months ago, I was diagnosed with degenerative arthritis in my neck. This results in the formation of osteophytes, or bone spurs, nerve pain, bulging discs, and other fun stuff like that. It's been a very painful and annoying experience. The doctor started off by treating me with physical therapy, anti-inflammatory drugs and Vicodin. This worked OK for a while, but I didn't get any permanent relief, and the pain and discomfort was really affecting my ability to live a normal life. I'm used to being pretty active and healthy physically, and it was really hard for me to be in pain ALL THE TIME. So, he decided that the next step was to give me steroid injections at the site. He said that the majority of his patients who get this procedure feel almost complete relief of their symptoms, with limited side effects. I got the injections on Saturday, and so far, so good. I still have some pain, but he said it takes 5 days for the injections to fully kick in.
Meanwhile... I do business management for people in the entertainment industry. This means having to deal with a lot of kooky people with a lot of kooky beliefs. One of my clients is really heavily into the whole "holistic healing" stuff. She goes to a Chinese doctor, herbalist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, etc. and swears by all of them. When I told her I was getting the steroid injections, she flipped out and told me they would kill me. Yes, kill me. She said that she's been getting injected with these peptides for her allergies by the Chinese doctor. She also said that many elderly people come in to his office to get these same injections for their arthritis. She claims it's all miraculous and it's what I ought to be getting for my neck. I'm, uh, not so sure about that.
Apparently, these peptide injections are not approved by the FDA and her "doctor" has to illegally import them from Switzerland or something. Have any of you heard anything about this? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 14:03:02 [Permalink]
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... if steroids killed, I'd be dead by now.
I've juvenile rheumatoid arthritis (also known as juvenile idiopathic arthritis, also known as Still's disease in my case) and I've had it since I was 8 months old. Mine was systemic - it affected every single joint in my body, including neck and jaw, and then some. This was some good 23 years ago - that's how old I am - and I was treated with everything available under the sun that is not some woowoo's snake-oil cure-all. Mainly, corticosteroids, anti-inflammatories and all that. I don't remember most of it; I was too young.
I never, however, heard of peptides being used to treat arthritis. Granted, my arthritis "ended" when I hit puberty, as JIA often does, so I might be simply outdated in the issue of medication, as mine is basically "damage control" - things to deal with the leftover wreckage rather than the inflammation itself. However, I doubt steroids will kill you. I doubt that a lot.
Just make sure to take something for your stomach; a lot of arthritis medication can be cruel to it, or at least was back in the day I needed it. Talk to your doctor about it - you'll probably need constant treatment and the risk of medication-induced acid reflux can be high. Nothing that isn't counteracted by a nice dose of omeprazole, I'd think, especially before anything serious happens, but anyway.
Physical therapy also helps with the pain and in keeping the joint mobility - at least, it did for me.
As for the peptides... actually, after a quick googling, it does look like some synthetic peptide is being explored to treat autoimmune arthritis. I wouldn't put a whole lot of trust in that without information, though. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 16:37:48 [Permalink]
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emsby:
Meanwhile... I do business management for people in the entertainment industry. This means having to deal with a lot of kooky people with a lot of kooky beliefs. |
Stick with the evidence based medicine. Just the fact that your friend told you that steroids will necessarily kill you is enough to conclude that she doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. So everything else she says is suspect. Your friend is clearly one of those people who think that the medical industry is engaged in a giant conspiracy to keep you sick. That's a woo-woo mantra.
And lets just say that there is an outside chance that the woo will work. Do you want to be a guinea pig? Once you leave evidence-based medicine behind, you will become the subject of an experiment. Not a scientific experiment either. Those kinds of experiments lead to the accumulation of data that can be used. As the subject of a woo experiment, all data is anecdotal and useless in a scientific context. The best you have is that your friend thinks it works. And as you said, you have to deal with a lot of kooky people.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 18:56:38 [Permalink]
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The reason we have a heavily regulated pharmaceutical industry in this country to begin with is that even the most reasonable, rational, cautious and educated average consumer does not have the expertise or resources to ensure that what is in the concoction that her doctor has given her is what the doctor says is in it. "Buyer beware" can lead to death (and has) when the buyer is unable to kick the tires.
Topical steroids are a mainstay of psoriasis treatment because they are anti-inflammatories, but they also can have significant side-effects. Famously, a product called "Skin Cap" was marketed from Spain, claimed to have no steroids in it whatsoever and promised astounding results. Thousands (perhaps millions) of cans later, and it is now illegal to import Skin Cap because of the very potent steroids it actually contained, which resulted in not a few deaths. Customs inspectors will sieze Skin Cap at the border, thanks to an import ban imposed by the FDA and FTC.
Odds are that the "peptide" stuff either has no benefit other than placebo effects, or it contains steroids (which are cheap and easy to produce). Steroids would also explain its value as an allergy treatment (if real) and arthritis treatment (if real), meaning that unbeknownst to her, your client is killing herself.
The fact that it is already claimed to be illegal means that any supply anyone gets will be unreliable, as customs agents aren't idiots and repackaging the stuff will only work to get it past customs temporarily. This will also be an excuse to jack up the price.
If the product is legal in Switzerland (or wherever), then its Swiss drug registration identification should be easy to find. After obtaining such information, a search of the FDA's website should quickly result in the reason why it is illegal to import into the U.S. If registration information is unobtainable, then someone is already lying, and willingly or not, your client is perpetuating the lie. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 21:17:26 [Permalink]
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Essentially, peptide are short chain of amino acids (a few dozens long). While proteins are longer, a few hundreds to several thousands.
So, like proteins, it really depends of the amino acid sequences. Saying 'peptides' just does not mean much by itself.
Also, peptides, generally speaking, are too small to be metabolically active.
| If the product is legal in Switzerland (or wherever), then its Swiss drug registration identification should be easy to find. After obtaining such information, a search of the FDA's website should quickly result in the reason why it is illegal to import into the U.S. If registration information is unobtainable, then someone is already lying, and willingly or not, your client is perpetuating the lie. |
Well; the FDA is pretty paranoid and even if the products are distributed in another country, you pretty much need to redo all the studies their way before getting the license granted. We are talking several million dollars worth of studies.
So, it is possible that there is an innocent reason for the drug not being legal in the US. I just don't think there is any.
Also, you actually not only need to prove that your product is harmless, but that it indeed does have a positive effect. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 21:33:52 [Permalink]
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Peptide means, basically, two or more amino acids linked by amide bonds. So technically, all protiens are (poly)peptides, all protien based eznymes are peptides, all hormones are peptides, which means your client could very well be getting unregulated corticosteriod injections from an unregistered/unlicensed provider.
Stick with your MD.
Excercise might also be beneficial, if you aren't engaged in a regular fitness program maybe ask your doc about it.
I have some permanent damage and arthritis to one of my illeo-sacral joints(constant pain, 24/7), can't take NSAIDS, can't take the steriod injections, due to idiosyncratic reactions... (NSAIDS just about killed me, almost bled to death. Steriod injection almost killed me too... caused my BP to become malignantly elevated, 220/110). Excercise is the only thing that really helps. Sustaining a good fitness program keeps the pain managable. I also eat a bottle of Glucosamine/Chondriotin every month, and probably take more tylenol than I should, but hey.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 21:53:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
...all hormones are peptides... |
Actually, steroid hormones are lipids. All natural corticosteroids are synthesized using cholesterol as a base. None of them are peptides, not least because of the sterol group they all contain. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2008 : 22:10:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
So, it is possible that there is an innocent reason for the drug not being legal in the US. I just don't think there is any.
Also, you actually not only need to prove that your product is harmless, but that it indeed does have a positive effect. |
I agree with all that, but because not only Skin Cap, but some "traditional" Chinese treatments (for numerous conditions) were effective because of undisclosed steroids, it seems likely that this "peptide" thing is, too. As I said, they're cheap and easy to make, and most of them are undetectable unless you specifically go looking for particular molecules (it took several tests of Skin Cap before they learned what steroid was in it, because it wasn't common).
And if the FDA has specifically banned the peptide thingy, which is what it sounds like, it means more than just that the FDA hasn't approved it yet. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 06:36:49 [Permalink]
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Thanks so much everyone!
This is very interesting... several of you mentioned that there's a possibility that these "peptides" actually do contain steroids and that's why they are providing her with some relief. That would not surprise me in the least. I'm sure this schyster of a "doctor" would not have any qualms about telling people this stuff is something other than what it actually is.
Don't worry, I don't have any plans to do anything other than what my doctor advises. Not only do I think this "alternative" medicine is dangerous, it's freakin' expensive! This woman spends several thousand dollars a month on this stuff and it's just a complete waste of her time and money.
Thanks again! |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Im Cool Trust Me
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 08:23:45 [Permalink]
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Is it a chinese doctor, or a practitioner of traditional chinese medicine? You simply refer to him as a 'chinese doctor'.
Because I don't see why a Chinese doctor is any different to a white doctor. |
Dig your claws into my organs! Stretch into my tendons! Bury your anchors into my bones!
"Force, my friends, is violence: the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. Naked force has resolved more issues throughout history than any other means. The common thinking, that violence never solves anything, is wishful thinking at it's worst! People who forget that always pay." |
| Edited by - Im Cool Trust Me on 08/19/2008 08:25:50 |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 08:52:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Im Cool Trust Me
Is it a chinese doctor, or a practitioner of traditional chinese medicine? You simply refer to him as a 'chinese doctor'.
Because I don't see why a Chinese doctor is any different to a white doctor.
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No, of course I meant a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine. That just takes too long to write out. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 10:02:37 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| Actually, steroid hormones are lipids. All natural corticosteroids are synthesized using cholesterol as a base. None of them are peptides, not least because of the sterol group they all contain. |
Doh!
But yes, you are correct.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 10:36:26 [Permalink]
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NSAID medications are effective against inflammations and pain, but be wary of prolonged used.
It got me a bleeding ulcer that forced me to the emergency ward for two litres(!) of blood transfusion. The blood count was down to less than half of normal.
Lesson learnt: Never take NSAID more than a few days without complementing it with an effective proton pump inhibitor, like Omeprazole. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 11:29:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
NSAID medications are effective against inflammations and pain, but be wary of prolonged used.
It got me a bleeding ulcer that forced me to the emergency ward for two litres(!) of blood transfusion. The blood count was down to less than half of normal.
Lesson learnt: Never take NSAID more than a few days without complementing it with an effective proton pump inhibitor, like Omeprazole.
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Yikes... I've been taking them for months now. Every day.  |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 13:28:43 [Permalink]
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It depends on the NSAID. Ibuprophen isn't meant for long term use. Celebrex you can take without worry of gastric bleeding. All of them will extend bleeding times (they are mild blood thinners) however.
If you have been taking one for a couple of months you are probably not going to run into complications. Just something to keep an eye on though.
If your gums start bleeding when you brush your teeth.... call your doctor.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Peptides & steroids
