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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 08:28:58 [Permalink]
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Here is what I think the debate results will be. It will move some uncertain democrats who worried about Obama's lack of experience into his camp. I doubt that the numbers will be as high for independents, but some, again, who were worried about Obama's lack of experience will also move toward Obama because he looked presidential. That could be the difference in states too close to call. Hard to say.
There is also this. McCain refused to look at Obama. That came through. Mcain couldn't rattle Obama. That came through too. Obama looked more comfortable than McCain even if somewhat aloof. And he demonstrated a grasp of foreign affairs that probably surprised some independents.
Obama was the first to tick off all of the countries that are affected by what Russia does and why. Very impressive. He brought up the need for Russia to be an ally with regard to nuclear proliferation, without backing down on Russia's bad behavior toward Georgia. And there was nothing McCain could do to make it look like Obama didn't know what he was talking about, no matter how many times McCain mentioned the people that he knows personally.
I guess I go back to my original point. A tie in the actual debate of foreign affairs is a win for Obama. Obama won the economic part of the debate.
The after debate polls say Obama won, but those polls have a large margin of error. They are, after all, small polls. If there is a significant change in the larger and more reliable polls, that will be more telling. As it is, Obama has been steadily rising in those polls.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2008 : 11:45:15 [Permalink]
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Am I the only one who caught McCain's early-on gaffe? I've been around the web (can't walk very well today and am staying home) and have yet to find it mentioned. It wasn't much of a gaffe, really, as gaffes go, but as the Republican Know-It-All Nominee, it shouldn't have happened and therefore deserves mention -- do I have you on the edge of your chairs yet?
Ok, he refered to the late President Eisenhower, the only decent Republican president in living memory, as "David" rather than "Dwight." David was his middle name and he was nicknamed, and known by all, as "Ike."
Could this be a sign of early-stage, saint-like senility, or mayhaps an harbinger of the approaching Rapture? I don't know....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 15:03:30 [Permalink]
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More war, more spending, more killing, more socialism, more regulations, more government, more empire.
I did come away with two observations from the debate. 1. Obama sounds more neocon than the neocons of 2004. 2. War is a permanent fixture for both parties.
It is so nice that Obama would actually speak with leaders, (which he can name correctly), before attacking their countries, where McCain thinks diplomacy only brings certainty of holocaust.
Speaking as they did about Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Pakistan and Iran, made me wonder if they were reflecting a war lust of the population - or their AIPAC and neocon allied funders?
They both had some economic shots, both agree to socialist billionaire bailouts and fascist nationalization of private corporations. They just disagree on where the money comes from.
They had national policy shots and brought out the true policy differences: nuclear reactors vs socialized medicine and carbon tax.
Both agree we should never hesitate to use military force and Afghanistan requires escalation. This one from Obama clinched my gut, "No American soldier ever dies in vain ~ because they were following the orders of their Commander in Chief."
I am sick and tired of these warmongering DC meatbags. Obama/McCain, not a dimes worth of difference. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 15:23:59 [Permalink]
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Zeked:
Obama sounds more neocon than the neocons of 2004 |
So you have never read the goals of PNAC calling for the creation of a democracy in the middle east and Iraq being the target of their ambition? Pax Americana? The word neocon is thrown around a lot but it actually means something specific in terms of foreign affairs.
That Obama would not invade a country with the idea of changing its leadership and forcing our brand of democracy on it (or attempting to force it, which was the plan for Iraq before everything turned to shit) makes him not a neocon.
Iraq stands as the shining example of neocon failure. Obama was against the invasion.
Edited to add:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2008 : 15:47:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zeked
more socialism, more regulations |
Do you really think that either Obama or McCain are aiming towards "more socialism"? And you rail against "more regulations" as though it's automatically a bad thing. But it is clear that the almost eight years of the current administration's attempts to de-regulate everything has been a disaster.
| 1. Obama sounds more neocon than the neocons of 2004. |
It isn't clear to me how you can possibly arrive at this conclusion.
| They had national policy shots and brought out the true policy differences: nuclear reactors vs socialized medicine and carbon tax. |
Except Obama isn't calling for socialized medicine. Even though by any reasonable measure, the rest of Europe has equal or better medical care than we do, it is politically impossible to really have socialized medicine in the US.
| Obama/McCain, not a dimes worth of difference. |
Where are you getting your news? You may want to consider another source. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 20:39:04 [Permalink]
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I am wondering why Obama, the supposed anti-war candidate, stated that he wants to move the war from Iraq to Afghanistan and potently expand the war by invading Pakistan.
Any anti-war voter can not vote for this man.
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 20:40:13 [Permalink]
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Kil. Agreed there is not the overt "democracy" hallelujah coming from Obama on spreading US sanctioned democracy through force. His focus and shift has become domination of regional energy resources through force and intimidation. No clarions for US approved democracy, but they are still an implied requirement where such energy interests and security concerns are found.
Pressuring countries like Venezuela with threats of ‘rogue state' status while perpetrating CIA destabilizing activities to overthrow and put in place more US friendly democracies – well the end result is the same. The democracy pom-poms are gone with Obama, but the rhetoric and actions brings the same result as a flaming Kristol interventionist script.
The rhetoric of “neo-con,” “realist,” and “liberal internationalist”, significantly blurs - and it is no fault of mine not to see much difference. Looking at Obamas' foreign policy advisors and reading his AIPAC speeches indicate an absolute allegiance to Israel and the Israeli Lobby. William Kristol, a well known neoconservative PNAC member, gives praise for Obama. The man just lacks the democracy pom-poms of days past. War and intervention is still the game. Become a friendly democracy or else...
United Against Nuclear Iran (UANI). Another neocon front group with Richard Holbrooke and neocon nutcase James R. Woolsey in the top leadership of this new group, are representing a bipartisan call for war. Richard Holbrooke is Obama's most prominent foreign policy advisor – and a likely Secretary of State or National Security Advisor in the Obama administration.
| Except Obama isn't calling for socialized medicine. |
excerpt of the Sept 2008 Presidential debate.
Obama “I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage.”
| Do you really think that either Obama or McCain are aiming towards "more socialism"? |
Yes, yes I do.
…
Obama and McCain both agree that the federal government should seize the assets of the financial industry at fire-sale prices, in a bizarre form of catastrophe-driven socialism or fascism. I know, we do live in a world of euphemism, so now we call these by far less harsh labels. I like some terms to be applied regardless of PC and definition drift. Socialized medicine, socialized markets – meh, dollars from my pocket and less personal liberty, more government controls.
You can call it supercalifragilisticempirism, it might catch on.
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“Obama sounds more neocon than the neocons of 2004.”
| It isn't clear to me how you can possibly arrive at this conclusion. |
Video of Obama on Pakistan, a primer for neocon interventionism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIum0o-_LZk
excerpts of the Sept 2008 Presidential debate.
Obama “I believe the Republican Guard of Iran is a terrorist organization.”
Obama “(Iran) have gone from zero centrifuges to 4,000 centrifuges to develop a nuclear weapon.”
| this next one is a gimmie |
Obama “McCain is absolutely right, we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran. It would be a game changer. Not only would it threaten Israel, a country that is our stalwart ally, but it would also create an environment in which you could set off an arms race in this Middle East.”
Obama “Iran is a rogue regime.”
Obama “(US must have) an energy strategy not just to deal with Russia, but to deal with many of the rogue states we've talked about, Iran, Venezuela.”
Obama “I actually believe that we need missile defense, because of Iran and North Korea and the potential |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 20:42:17 [Permalink]
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I guess that like Obama's grandfather, McCain looks like a "typical White person".
Obama's quote, not mine.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 21:12:03 [Permalink]
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| To suggest that the comment "I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage" is the same as "socialized medicine" is to admit that you a) don't know what Obama's plan really is, or b) have a different definition of "socialized medicine" than the rest of us. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 21:46:50 [Permalink]
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I watched this.
Obama won marginally. Not great, but he did account for himself quite well only getting a tad pissed off at McCain.
If McCain leads off with another bumper sticker answer to a fucking question, I'll just scream.
He was somewhat successful with his base by continually saying that Obama "just doesn't get it". This plays well to the sky-pilot fundies who think everyone else "just doesn't get it".
Obama did hit McCain time and again on inaccurate portrayals of his position and was the only candidate to actually address the other directly.
McCain had to kick ass in this debate. He had dropped from dead even in the polls to down 14% by debate time. To get any sort of traction, he had to get some independants. CNN's coverage pretty much showed when McCain fired off vicious personal attacks and was condesending to the junior Senator from my state, independents didn't like it one bit. He alienated a lot of independants with his bat-shit crazy, witchcraft-protected VP. And he did manage to piss off a vocal supporter (Letterman). Over all, this debate was supposed to be his strong point. Not dominating this debate pretty much hurts his campaign.
I'm really looking forward to Biden slicing up Palin into little hate-filled bite-sized pieces in the debate they will have. Of course, the McCain campaign will accuse the big bad Biden of being mean to a woman. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 21:55:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zeked
Socialized medicine, socialized markets – meh, dollars from my pocket and less personal liberty, more government controls. |
I'm just sick of this hypocritical libertarian refrain. You abhor the government taking and spending your taxes, but once they're taken and spent, you seem perfectly fine with taking advantage of the services provided. As soon as you divorce yourself from society completely, Zeked, you'll stop being a hypocrite. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 22:08:40 [Permalink]
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cablejones said:
I am wondering why Obama, the supposed anti-war candidate, stated that he wants to move the war from Iraq to Afghanistan and potently expand the war by invading Pakistan.
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Because too much of the electorate would not vote for a wimp, and Obama would be labled a giant bleeding heart liberal wimp if he were against all wars.
Why (besides Ohio election fraud) didn't Kerry win in 2004? Because he was painted as a big anti-war coward.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 22:48:33 [Permalink]
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| You abhor the government taking and spending your taxes, but once they're taken and spent, you seem perfectly fine with taking advantage of the services provided. As soon as you divorce yourself from society completely, Zeked, you'll stop being a hypocrite. |
Do you think because I function in society I am a hypocrite for not laying homage to the state? Do you think individuals have no rights but societies oddly enough do? The hypocrisy is in your attack. |
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Debate!
