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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2008 : 08:53:36
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Looks like I've finally stepped into it on Comfort's blog. Someone who actually seems to have done some research into what we're arguing about.
He's offered to send me some books by this "Micheal Brown" character, a guy who's very good at converting Jews to xianity or something. Here's what some Jewish groups feel about him.
Anyway, I figure sure, I'll take the books since I'm too cheap to pay for them myself but I don't want Comfort to have my email or physical mailing address! I'm thinking of giving this "scott" guy my contact information through this forum since he doesn't have any such info on his blog name link. I figure in my reply to him I'd just tell him about this site, and we can do it through here through pm's or something. Would that be ok?
Due to the fact that this post of Comfort that we're arguing on is already relatively old and it looks like a lot of reading may have to be done, we may not be able to finish the argument on Comfort's blog. We'll have to settle it in emails most likely.
The interesting thing, scott keeps talking about how it's "modern" Judaism that has rejected christianity and has distorted the bible to avoid any acknowledgement of "messianic prophecies". What in hell is the difference between modern Judaism and the "old" one, and how would one even know??
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 09:47:10 [Permalink]
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Well... I guess you can always find these Michael Brown's books on Amazon...
As for the differences between 'old and new" Judaism; I guess that Judaism from pre-Christian time was centered around the Temple of Jerusalem with a class of hereditary priest attending the religious duties.
In the time of Jesus, the priest lineage in place dated back to the Macchabeans. Its authority seemed to have been contested at the time, both on theological (the Pharisee favoured a less literal interpretation of the Torah and the Essens considered the temple corrupt) and political grounds (the temple was associated with the Romans authority).
By 70AD; the second temple was destroyed and many Jews left Israel. This event boosted the Pharisee movement and lead to less centralized religion and, in turn, to the development of the Synagogue and Rabbinic Judaism that provided the seeds for modern Judaism.
As far as the Jews rejecting Jesus...
Judaism has long had a prophet of messiah. It is not really a specific person. It just means somebody the God will send to save Israel (like Cyrus that delivered them from their Babylonian exile). And the Jews have had need for a lot of them during their tumultuous history so there are quite a few references to these Messiah.
In particular, after the fall of the second temple, the Talmud tradition often spoke of a Messiah that would return the Jews to their homeland and rebuild the Temple of Solomon (third time the charm?).
Among these many references, several were later interpreted to be references to Jesus Christ (Isaiah in particular was particularly popular so was Daniel and Jeremiah).
Also; there is pretty good evidences that the gospels... well lied about Jesus to make him appear to fit the prophecies better, for example Jesus' belonging to King David's lineage or the birth in Bethlehem and the Flight into Egypt. The latter is particularly 'interesting' because not only it asks the writer to weave a complex fairy tale but a cursory lecture of the actual text reveals that it was never attempted as a prophecy at all.
Nevertheless, a lot of Christians were happy to believe that Jesus was the Messiah announced in the Old Testament (it was a 'proof' after all that they were right) and that the Jews, therefore, rejected him.
Once again, reality is more complex. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 10:43:44 [Permalink]
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After reading the bit you linked... Ray is the one that has not read the Bible.
The passage he quotes is from the book of Isaiah.
Is a more complete passage:
8. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and in another sixty-five years, Ephraim shall be broken, no longer to be a people.
(...)
14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.
16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."
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Obviously, the passage does not speak about Jesus.
Rather, Israel has just been defeated and 'God' promises to his people: 'Sure you got your butt kicked; but it is not going to last. There is a young pregnant woman over there and before her son grows to adulthood, you will be free again'.
The text even mentions the duration 65 years... and the event in question took place around the 8th century BC.
The passage is not about Jesus.
Where Confort is mistaken (again) is about who made the translation mistake. Many of the gospel writers, you see, were not fluent in Hebrew (Paul might be an exception, according to his -suspicious- biography). At that time, it was mostly a language reserved to the religious and educated (mostly like Latin in the middle-age).
Most gospels were written in Greeks or, maybe for some, Aramaic.
So, the early gospels writers were the one that made the mistake. They mis-read the text from Isaiah, thought it referred to a virgin and wrote down that Mary was a virgin to make it appear like it fulfilled the prophecy. Even if it would not make sense then, of course.
The same thing happened with Hosea and the flight to Egypt, by the way. The gospels writer mistook plural (my children, the people of Israel) for the singular (Jesus) and decided that Jesus must have come 'out of Egypt' and build a complex fantasy to explain how.
The question is whether it was done purposely or progressively by isolated communities anxious to 'fill in the gaps'. Which sounds to me like something that would happen. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 11:42:31 [Permalink]
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Ig, my email address is in my sig. Just point the guy to any post of mine, point out the email address, and have him email me. When he does, I'll send him your email address, and off you two can go.
Or, you can hash things out here, in public or in PMs, if he wants to register. He can't PM you or email you through SFN without registering. If he's comfortable with that, then go for it. Otherwise, he can email me, as above. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 13:31:56 [Permalink]
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Thanks. I'd post my current reply to him here, but it's nightmarishly long. I've extended the invite.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 14:13:50 [Permalink]
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| Ah; don't shy away from endless verbiage! Do like me and embrace your inner pompous ass! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 15:22:24 [Permalink]
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No, it's way too goddam long, and the formatting style is different. It'd be a satanic level pain in the ass to convert it to a readable form here. For instance, there it's < and > are used instead of [ and ] to make bolded and italicized statements.
I did put a link to his reply to me though. I'll show the part that I'm having trouble finding information about. All the search engines just lead to xian sites which of course only give the one view...
From a purely Biblical standpoint, we can see -- even in the Talmud -- that G-d was not pleased with the Jewish practices of empty religion as opposed to a heart devoted to loving G-d the way He said to love Him. Specifically, the Talmud teaches that for the last 40 years of the Temple, G-d did not accept the Yom Kippur sacrifice that was supposed to atone for the sins of the nation. You must already know that this sacrifice had to be performed every year -- as it comes very soon this month (October 2008).
Put on your thinking cap with me and do some math here. The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. The Talmud records the historical account of FORTY (40) years of G-d not accepting the Yom Kippur sacrifice before the Temple's destruction and resulting diaspora. What kind of time-frame does that put on of the last time that G-d did accept the Yom Kippur sacrifice ? What event occured in that time-frame that could've possibly impacted the sacrifice for EVERY YEAR after ? Well, let's see... How about the fact that G-d sent His Son as an asham (sin offering -- Isaiah 53:10)?
The citation he's referring to is from the Talmud, Yoma 39a
I've started a search on a Jewish site to see if I can find something.
I'm thumbing around mostly this site for information:
Messiah Truth Discussion Forums > Counter-Missionary Forum > Search and plug in Michael L. Brown, the guy that "scotty" likes to use a lot, apparently.
Comfort doesn't allow links on his blog, so I have to show them that way.
I've found a site that deals with Brown. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 10/01/2008 15:28:18 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 16:00:14 [Permalink]
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| G-d did not accept the Yom Kippur sacrifice that was supposed to atone for the sins of the nation. You must already know that this sacrifice had to be performed every year -- as it comes very soon this month (October 2008). |
Do you know where that comes from?
I have not read the Talmud myself and the only references I can find online are apologetic Christians.
So... It might just be another legend.
Also; the witting down of the Talmud started at 200AD with the rest of the writing taking place over century.
By then, it is not particularly surprising that, in turn, Judaism would be influenced by Christianity and integrate some Christian traditions.
I dunno; it is interesting however, as I never heard about that before... I need to find myself a Talmudic scholar.... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 16:22:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
| G-d did not accept the Yom Kippur sacrifice that was supposed to atone for the sins of the nation. You must already know that this sacrifice had to be performed every year -- as it comes very soon this month (October 2008). |
Do you know where that comes from?
I have not read the Talmud myself and the only references I can find online are apologetic Christians. |
Same with me, that's where I found the Talmud, Yoma 39a reference. So I went to a Judiac site and started a search there.
So... It might just be another legend.
Also; the witting down of the Talmud started at 200AD with the rest of the writing taking place over century.
By then, it is not particularly surprising that, in turn, Judaism would be influenced by Christianity and integrate some Christian traditions. |
I'd like some more info on the dating of the writing. That alone may help.
Well, that and the fact that it seems that at least the dates for the destruction of the temple may be off from what this Micheal Brown says.
Though that article doesn't deal with the Yom Kippur stuff.
Yeah, that's a lot of stuff to slog through.
=======
EDIT: When I said in a previous post: | I did put a link to his reply to me though. I'll show the part that I'm having trouble finding information about. All the search engines just lead to xian sites which of course only give the one view... |
I was referring to the link at the top of the page here where he had replied to an earlier post of mine.
I'm still working on the reply to that!
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 10/02/2008 04:35:02 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2008 : 20:30:33 [Permalink]
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Well; the destruction of the second temple is 70CE. It is about the only firm date we have as it has been reported by several sources.
As for the rest of the link... I only have a quick glance over it. Brown seems like another 'lier for Christ'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2008 : 07:01:34 [Permalink]
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| My reply such as it is so far, is up. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 17:22:35 [Permalink]
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| I got another reply from Scott. He seems amenable to bringing it over here. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2008 : 20:01:35 [Permalink]
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Well, my next reply to him is chopped up into two parts. This first part deals with messianic prophecies.
EDIT: I've got to go and post this site in that thread in Comfort's blog. I wish I'd found it sooner. It has useful tables!
It has to do with the "virgin birth/young woman" idea.
http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter/is714.swf
===============
This is rather a huge reply, so I'll just chop my response up: If you want to continue this, you can go to the SkepticFriends site, register there and look for the thread Judaism or Christianity in the Religion section.
Why not? Sometimes Israel is referred to as a "servant", for example in Isiah 49.3
| You're correct. Sometimes Israel is referred to as the Lord's servant. This is why I asked you to please read Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 for yourself and try to insert Israel as the servant. It simply does not hold water. |
I did do some reading: I found out that, according to the MessiahTruth site: The chapter divisions did not exist until about four hundred years ago. Therefore, it's important to examine this chapter in its context, and not just cut off the page, all by itself.
Which is presumably why you included Isaiah 52 in as well, though not the first verse for some reason.
Maybe this is why:
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
The author is not addressing an actual person here, but a city. This manner of speaking continues through chapters 52 and 53.
Same as with these other verses in Isaiah:
Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)
Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)
"Israel" itself is spoken of as a "servant".
Isaiah 52:14 -- "As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:"
| So, if Israel is the "his" in "his visage was so marred", when did the Nation of Israel look like a man or have the form of the sons of men ? |
I can go back to Isaiah 52:1 for the context and ask: When did Jerusalem ever put on garments like a person? This whole section is obviously using poetic/symbolic language. Something that's carried on in Isaiah 52 and 53. This seems to be the crux of the matter for all of this right here.
That's why I brought up Isaiah 52 in my last reply.
Isaiah 52:15 -- "So shall he sprinkle many nations..."
| Again, if Israel is the "he" here, when was Israel's blood shed in order to sprinkle the nations ? Hopefully, you won't accuse me of reading something into this that isn't there -- spe. that it is the blood that is shed to do the sprinkling. Through Tanach the only other mention of sprinkling is of ashes (Exodus 9) and water (Numbers 8, 19 & Ezekiel 36). But the context of this Passage of Isaiah is speaking about the offering that is being presented as "lamb to the slaughter" (Isaiah 53:7). |
Let's look at the whole verse, as you wanted me to do:
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
If this is referring to Christ, hasn't he been preached all over the world? Have not the "kings" of the earth already been told?
This is just more symbolism. The "blood shed" to sprinkle the nations is referring to the lousy treatment that they've already been getting.
Isaiah 53:2 -- "and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
| So, if the "him" here is the Nation of Israel, why is Isaiah (a Jew) saying "we shall see him" and "that we should desire him" ? Makes no sense. This "him" is someone other than the Nation. |
Let's look at the whole verse: Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire. from the Tanach. It's in the past tense; apparently spoken from the future tense referred to in Isaiah 52:15 from the view of when the Jews are finally vindicated and everyone's looking back at the history of the state of Israel.
You missed Isaiah 53:3 where it says that he was despised and isolated, etc. Of course, according to the bible, Jesus' ministry was quite popular. It seems to be one of the reasons that the Jewish religious leaders were allegedly afraid of him. Only at the end did enough powerful people get together to kill him. On the other hand, the state of Israel was never really popular in the time that this was written, was it?
You also didn't bring up Isaiah 53:4 -- Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. this time. Just as well, since I had dealt with that in my previous post:
Problem: Exodus 32:33 which seems to say that a person can't make any atonement for others. Hence the "sin offerings" people had to give to the priests. The priests had to do the rituals, but the people had to get and bring their own offerings.
That kind of precludes Christs' "sacrifice" doesn't it?
Isaiah 53:5 -- "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
| There is no place in Tanach that teaches the the Nation of Israel can pay for its own sins. Let's try this: "But he [the Nation of Israel] was wounded for our [the Nation of Israel's] transgressions, he [the Nation of Israel] was bruised for our [the Nation of Israel's] iniquities: the chastisement of our [the Nation of Israel's] peace was upon him [the Nation of Israel]; and with his [the Nation of Israel's] stripes we are healed." Like I said earlier -- that's a huge hack. If the Nation of Israel could be bruised for its own iniquities, why was there a need for the Yom Kippur sacrifice ? The fundamental premise to reading this correctly here is that you cannot save yourself. You simply cannot. |
It's referring to the fact that the Israelites were not always faithful, and their Lord wound up punishing them. Artscroll's translation says, "because of our rebellious sins." One must keep in mind that it is not biblically sound to say that one man can atone for another's sins. That verse in Exodus I mentioned earlier.
From the MessiahTruth site: Secondly, there is a problem with the end of the verse, "with his stripes we are healed." This is another changing of tense to lead someone away from the true meaning of the chapter, the motive being that the Christian evangelists want you to think the healing is a continuous atonement, when in fact the healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they have this enormous revelation about the Jews at the End of Days.
Isaiah 53:7 -- "...he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."
| ]So, when did Israel actually die ? Couldn't be the diaspora since the Nation has survived -- miraculously -- during the dispersion. |
The nation of Israel has not existed for well over a thousand years. It only got "reborn" in 1948, in large part to the UN. It's referring to the nation, not the people themselves.
| Also, Israel has NEVER kept its mouth shut as it has consistently had to side-step attacks from different enemies. |
In my previous reply I pointed out that Jesus himself didn't always keep his mouth shut when he was being interrogated either. Matthew 26:57-68 when Jesus did answer his accusers.
Isaiah 53:9 -- "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."
| When did Israel have a grave in its death ? |
According to Messiahtruth.com it's a matter of mistranslation. The word rendered here as "death" should actually read "deaths" because the Hebrew word (apparently from the Tanach itself) is b'motav which is a conjugated plural word. If it's plural, then it can't refer to just one person. It would fit more with the context established in Isaiah 52:1.
See Artscroll's "He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions (note the plural here), for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth."
No deceit? That doesn't exactly match your "Messiah" either.
He broke the law by stealing corn on the Sabbath Mark 2:23, and he encouraged his disciples to take a horse without asking permission Matthew 21, sure permission was later given, but that's not the point. One should ask first.
He said: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" Matthew 16:28. Whoops. Some try to dodge that by saying he was referring to the "Transfiguration" on top of that hill when some OT saints were supposed to have shown up to talk with Jesus, but that fails because Jesus had never left them yet, so he couldn't be "coming in his kingdom" yet!
Isaiah 53:10 -- "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
| You will find nowhere in Tanach that Israel is given the permission nor the responsibility of being a sin offering ("asham") for its own sins. |
You'll notice that it says his soul an offering for sin. When did Jesus give up his soul? Allegedly his body for a little while, but his soul?? Remember according to the Tanach it's blood that's needed isn't it, not the soul?
Jesus had disciples, but no physical seed, and the Hebrew word "zera" can only refer to physical children.
Again, from the site: From Isaiah 53:11 on the narrator changes from the gentile kings to the Lord Himself. From this point on, the chapter is foretelling the reward the Lord will grant Israel for enduring the exile and never losing faith in the Lord.
Isaiah 53:12 -- "...because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
You left out part of that verse: Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
When did Jesus ever divide spoils of anyone with anybody? This is referring to the final Vindication of the Jewish people, as said above.
| Israel has never poured out its soul unto death. The trials Israel has gone through certainly felt like death, but to pour your soul out unto death leads to death. |
Not really; it's referring to soul, not "blood" or "body" or anything physical. It's symbolism stating what Israel felt.
| Finally, Israel has never borne the sin of many. |
Doesn't the bible say that Israel was punished many times for it's sins? For the sins of its citizens?
| Now, go through this and see that this Passage (written 700 years before His birth) clearly points to the mission of the Messiah of Israel. |
Only after a few mistranslations have been made, a few times parts of the verses themselves were not quoted completely in your last reply, and the context of Isaiah 52:1 is ignored.
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The "messiah" is supposed to have a few roles:
beingjewish dot com/toshuv/real_messiah dot html
mordochai dot tripod dot com/mashiyah dot html#top
From the site: "One of the primary ways that we know that jesus was not the Messiah was simply because he did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies."
| Again, based on their definition of the Messiah ("N" through "Z"), He hasn't fulfilled them yet -- YET. |
Which OT verses say that the Messiah will come, be killed, rise from the dead, take off, came back later and then fulfill those prophecies??
Also from the site: "The Messiah will be a human being, the child of two human parents."
Where is the Scripture verse that specifies that Messiah will have 2 human parents? |
Probably in the part that got "mistranslated" as "virgin" -- as opposed to "young woman" shall conceive...
| Or is it, rather, an attempt to deflect the inevitable mention of Isaiah 9:6 that is CLEARLY speaking of a child who will be born and will be called the Prince of Peace. Now whether you want to look at the KJV or the Chabad version, you'll see very different ordering to the words which changes the meaning. Whichever you choose, though, recognize that the next verse also clearly states that this government will last forever. How will this happen if the Prince of Peace, as King David, dies ? David's kingdom certainly went downhill after his death within only 2 generations. Yet, the Prince of Peace's is going to last forever ?? |
Let's see, how long did Christ's "reign" last on earth? Remember, where in the OT does it say that the "messiah" will come once, be killed, rise again, take off, and return to finish the prophecies?
Anyway, from messiahtruth dot com/isa9o dot html they point out, among other things: This passage is, in reality, about the wonders performed by the Lord for Hezekiah, king of Judah. "Hezekiah" means "Strong/mighty is G-d." This passage is Isaiah's praise of the Lord for his salvation in the affair of Sennacherib's siege of Jerusalem. We find an allusion to this in that the rare usage of the term "the zeal of Lord" is used elsewhere in reference to Hezekiah's victory.
They point out that even the NT doesn't make use of that verse.
Also from the site: "The King Messiah will be very active in the Holy Temple. He will reinstate the Sanhedrin, our highest court, and they will reinstate the High Priest.
Which of course, "Christ" has not done.
| Which verse in Tanach says that He will reinstate the Sanhedrin ? Well, I guess the Orthodox missed their messiah since the Sanhedrin has already been reinstated in Israel. |
By whom?? It looks like both religion's prophecies fail here.
| Further, very few Orthodox / anti-missionaries recognize the the Messiah will not only be a King, but also a Priest. In fact, He has very specific High Priest responsibilities. Ever hear that He's to be a priest forever (Psalm 110:4) ?? |
When has "Christ" done that? Isn't it referring to the bloodline of David which will be priests forever? Of course, again, both religions' prophecies have failed at this point.
As a matter of fact, let's take a look at Psalm 110:4.
King James Version:
"The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."
Online Chabad version:
"The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek."
Decompose the last words of this verse (this is a phonetic spelling out of the words): "kohen `owlam dibrah Malkiy-Tsedeq."
Whether you want to take dibrah as "after the order of" (KJV) or as "because of the speech of" (Chabad), don't miss the fact that He is to be a priest forever. Don't let the fact that dibrah which means "a reason, suit or style:--cause, end, estate, order, regard" taint the way that Chabad's version has translated this verse to "because of the speech of" |
Again, both prophecies have failed: Christianity because Christ never did that, and there's nothing in the OT "prophecies" that mention him coming once, being killed, resurrecting, leaving, and coming back to finish the job...and Judaism because well, it's obvious that the prophecy failed.
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I think the good professor would disagree with you: mordochai dot tripod dot com/daniyyel9 dot html#top
This guy has the same attitude toward people like you as you do towards people like him, so you'd probably get along.
| Of course he'd disagree. But, I most likely don't have the same attitude toward him that he does me. Many Orthodox don't consider me Jewish any longer since I believe that Y'shua is the Messiah. On the other hand, though, a Buddhist Jew is still a Jew. He and I would certainly both say that the other is looking at Scripture incorrectly, but my desire is that this gentleman repents and puts his faith in the Messiah of Israel that he's rejected. Remember Isaiah 53:3, "He is despised and rejected of men..."). |
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It's been a while, a long while, but there are discussions dealing with Brown "Answering Dr. Michael L. Brown's Objections to Judaism" on google.
| I'm sure there are, but you're clearly getting Dr. Brown's work filtered. Go to the source in the same way I listen to Tovia. |
I'm scrambling now to find stuff that examines what I used to hear. At least one of those sites that has responses to Micheal Brown has links to Brown's own articles so one can see for oneself who's right or not.
Answering Dr. Michael L. Brown's Objections to Judaism
I used to listen to some of his stuff when I was a kid (at least I think it was his stuff, it's been years. I remember he was a "completed Jew" though, so he claimed). He was on 100 Huntley Street a few times also, I believe. Not much I know, but still.
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Why assume that's what I've done?
| You're right. Please forgive me for assuming. I shouldn't have done that. |
No problem; maybe I worded something wrong in a previous post. I write so damned much I don't have time to see just how I word anything.
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Care to prove that charge?
| Again, my apologies for assuming. |
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Of course not. The bible is unreliable scientifically and archeologically. (different discussions) Why then should I?
| My point here is that it seems you're looking at information that is merely convenient for you from an anti-Christian viewpoint. |
Actually, one of the sites I've looked at is the Institute for Biblical and Scientific Studies in the Bible and Science section. It's a Christian site itself. As for archeology, I've read books from various authors.
The View from Nebo by Amy Dockser Marcus, Out of the Desert by William Stiebing, and The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.
| You're not investigating the Orthodox, anti-missionary sites because it's what you believe or because you're so familiar with both sides of the argument. You're sifting through what the anti-missionaries have to say that backs up your claims without first looking at the equal & opposite view from the most scholarly name from the Messianic side. Am I wrong here ? |
Yeah. I've been to "Jews for Jesus" and various apologetic sites which deal with biblical claims in general as opposed to just "anti-anti-missionary" ones. I've heard some of Brown's stuff years ago, I mentioned previously.
Remember, I made a remark about the bible's general reliability archaeologically and scientifically. That had nothing to do with Messianic Judaism.
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Yeah, but only in English and not in Israel, it seems.
Messiah Truth Discussion Forums > Counter-Missionary Forum > Search and plug in Michael L. Brown then go to post #101 of the thread topic Rabbi Singer and Dr. Brown.
Thank you for the pointer to this forum. I hadn't seen it before !!
So this guy, Chris', hang-up is that Dr. Brown -- a natural English speaker who's learned Biblical Hebrew in order to read the original texts -- won't debate someone in modern Hebrew ? How unbelievably trivial ! Clearly, this guy Chris speaks English just fine. Can't he read the original Hebrew Text and debate it ?? |
Thing is, it's not English that the Hebrew text was written in, is it? Chris knows that there'd be some stuff lost in the translation.
Isn't that the point of doing it in the language it's actually written in???
| Further, Chris is "thinking" about challenging Dr. Brown ?? Why not just do it and see if Dr. Brown backs down ? |
It seems to me the way he's already been in contact with Brown's "people" and Brown will only debate in English.. Chris is "thinking" about giving in to Brown's demand there since Brown's people have already turned him down for a Hebrew debate.
With regards to
Isaiah 42:6 -- "I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations."
The man's commentary says the verse is referring to Isreal itself, much like those other verses in Isaiah.
He shall not raise his voice. It will not be necessary to admonish and to prophesy to the nations, for they will come by themselves to learn from them [i.e., from Israel], as the matter is stated (Zech. 8: 23): "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."
The man's commentary pretty much shows the actual context of the entire passage.
===============
That's part of my reply to his most recent reply to me.
|
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 10/04/2008 23:25:41 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2008 : 20:18:42 [Permalink]
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Now, for the second part of my reply to him, this one deals with anti-semitism:
=========
About anti-semitism:
They sure helped it along during the past almost 2000 years; those other cultures like the Assyrians kind of died out before they could contribute much. Without the centuries of Christian anti-semitism which Brown's book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" itself mentions, I don't see how anti-semitism would be so strong.
| Again, this is a very spiritual answer that would be a discussion unto itself. |
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No, just historical answers.
| What, though, is the reason for history's consistent anti-Semitism ? Check out Think It Thru's "Anti Semitism" episode (www dot inspiration dot net/thinkitthru on the third page of videos). |
Yeah. He dismisses the Christian component of anti-semitism by saying that there was anti-semitism before Christ, which there was, but back then they were not the only groups discriminated against. They kept themselves separate, had wars (like everyone else did) and and had a religion that portrayed them as the "chosen" people of the "God" of creation.
Same kind of nationalistic pride that ticks people off about the States today, in a way.
The problem was that Christianity propogated anti-semitism, reinforced it, and more importantly, by spreading all over Europe and the New World, they spread it.
He brings up various theories, such as religous/social isolation of them made the Jews seem suspicious and then "shoots it down" by saying that even when they tried blending in they were still persecuted. Problem with his idea is that once that idea got developed it's very easy to assume that the foreign group is just using camoflouge. In other words, the damage has been done.
Christianity took over, reinforced and spread older prejudices that the ancient people had. Also spread were all the "rationales" for hating the Jews.
The reasons for anti-semitism are not explained by any one theory; there are multiple causes. It's not "what is the reason" for antisemitism but "what are the reasons".
"Darwinism" had pretty much nothing to do with it. Something that Comfort has yet to admit.
He also tries to get Christianity off the hook by saying that he's only run into christians who "love" the jews. It all depends which groups, and one should look at the version of christianity that got spread around through Europe and North America. That was Catholocism for the most part. They did not "love" the Jews.
He mentions the Christian support for the state of Isreal. He should look more carefully at some of the underlying reasons for that support. Look up John Hagee on the Huffington Post site, article called <b>McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will (AUDIO)</b> then there's Audio Recording of McCain's Political Endorser John Hagee Preaching Jews Are Cursed and Subhuman - By Bruce Wilson Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:15:20 PM EST on the Talk To Action site. Why am I bringing up Hagee? He's the head of Christians United for Isreal, a group that Brown would most likely consider to be a "friend" of the Jewish people.
Yet if you look at those links and the videos contained, you'll see this:
He goes on: "Theodore Herzl is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Hertzel went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust.
"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel." (Listen to the audio below.) |
Thing is, one has to look at the motivations for friendship. Do a search on the Talk To Action site with John Hagee's name. For example, their article McCain-backer Hagee's 'Thrilling' Worldview: Rapture, Then "Holocaust"
On July 19, 2006, at a Christians United For Israel sponsored Washington DC event, Pastor John Hagee declared :
"The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to Fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ. |
Every bible reader knows that in the Tribulation, the Jewish people take a pounding; yet Hagee wants to have this all happen sooner? Yeah, some "friend"...willing to have a whole bunch of his friends knocked off so's he and his cohorts can "go home" to "heaven"!
Brown dismisses the idea that some christians have, like Hagee, that the holocaust was "divine judgement" because it was too vile and bloody. Global Flood anyone? Or the verses where the OT "God" ordered pregnant women and babies killed?
Sounds par for the course to me. I'm not saying that idea is right, just that Brown's dismissal of the "divine judgement" idea because it's so bloody is off.
I knew what he was looking for: Yep, the "Devil" hates the Jews. Because it's through them that knowledge of "Jesus" came into the world. The only thing that "connects" all the dots he says. Maybe if he realized that the problem is a <b>multi-factorial one</b> instead of looking for a single answer he'd know better. That, and he gives the devil a whole lot of power; enough to possess or influence pretty much the entire planet; even many Christians. Does that mean then, that anti-semite Christians like Martin Luther will not be going to heaven after all?
Where in the bible does it say that a person can be inhabited by both the "Holy Spirit" and the devil?
Problem: according to Jewish teachings, the devil is not the "enemy of God" that he is in Christianity. He's more of a tester. It's only once one already accepts the Christian teachings that Brown's "theory" even makes any sense.
Problem: why weren't <b>Christians</b> also persecuted throughout history like the Jews were then? After all, the "Great Commission" has it that everyone is supposed to go out and spread the word. It's too late to go after the Jewish people at that point. Since the Jews "rejected" Christ, the torch has been supposedly passed to Christians.
Problem: He says that the devil went after the Jewish people to make "God" look like "a liar" when he said that he'd preserve them. Thing is: there are many prophecies in the bible where that could be easily be done. See Revelations with that "mark of the beast" and so on. To make "God" look like a liar, the devil would just have to make sure that the relevent actors don't follow that particular script. In other words, <b>don't have a "mark" at all</b>.
Mission accomplished. Do Christians think he'll do that though?
All Brown has is a Christian "conspiracy theory" with no evidence behind it other than his assertion that it's the only one that "connects all the dots", with no consideration that maybe there's more than one cause.
|
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 10/04/2008 20:19:59 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2008 : 09:30:20 [Permalink]
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Congratulation, man. That's good job.
I would back up from the idea of anti-semitism before the fall of the temple, personally.
It is not anti-semitism if you hate people because you have been at war for several generations with them as you'd hate them just as much if they were spaghetti-monsterist.
Before the temple, I'd argue that the Jews were not specifically treated more poorly than other people in this tumultuous region or more poorly that they were treating their neighbours.
Actual anti-Semitism, in my opinion, started later. Because Jews were living among the populations while not being integrated in it. This got even more significant when the polytheism got replaced by monotheism. Initially, people were used to seeing people of other faith. As almost everybody got Christian, this progressively became more shocking.
And; of course, Anti-Semitism, was not limited to Catholicism. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2008 : 14:49:34 [Permalink]
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Ray's posted both of my replies. I post them here first for storage since I never know for sure if my comments will get through, though he's good about that.
|
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Judaism or Christianity?
