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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2008 : 05:41:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
You say that but next January Massachusetts will have Kerry, Kennedy, Frank etc... as their representation. Nice... |
Well, I say that about Oklahoma, but the same knuckle-dragging Republicans keep getting re-elected.
The problem is that at least for the House, districts are designed to keep the people in power in power. Until we find a better way to draw up districts, we'll continue to see almost no change in the make-up of the House, and those that are there can safely move a bit further to the right or left (depending) than is really good for the country. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 07:16:46 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Cuneiformist |
| Well, I say that about Oklahoma, but the same knuckle-dragging Republicans keep getting re-elected. |
So you could see how it might get a little laughable if a pub ignored a dem warning and denied the problem even existed and moved in favor of ignoring the warning only to blame the dem when the warning came to pass. This is what BF did. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 10:13:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
Bill,
Barney was not the chairman 2003. He was the ranking Democrat on the Finance Services
committee. The quote used in Wikipedia was from an NYT article in 2003. Barney was on the take
with Freddy and Fannie along with other Reps and Senators from both parties. |
Barney Frank is awesome. -Dave W.-
*WASHINGTON — Unqualified home buyers were not the only ones who benefitted from Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank's efforts to deregulate Fannie Mae throughout the 1990s.*
So did Frank's partner, a Fannie Mae executive at the forefront of the agency's push to relax lending restrictions.
Now that Fannie Mae is at the epicenter of a financial meltdown that threatens the U.S. economy, some are raising new questions about Frank's relationship with Herb Moses, who was Fannie's assistant director for product initiatives. Moses worked at the government-sponsored enterprise from 1991 to 1998, while Frank was on the House Banking Committee, which had jurisdiction over Fannie.
Both Frank and Moses assured the Wall Street Journal in 1992 that they took pains to avoid any conflicts of interest. Critics, however, remain skeptical.
"It's absolutely a conflict," said Dan Gainor, vice president of the Business & Media Institute. "He was voting on Fannie Mae at a time when he was involved with a Fannie Mae executive. How is that not germane?
"If this had been his ex-wife and he was Republican, I would bet every penny I have - or at least what's not in the stock market - that this would be considered germane," added Gainor, a T. Boone Pickens Fellow. "But everybody wants to avoid it because he's gay. It's the quintessential double standard."
A top GOP House aide agreed.
"C'mon, he writes housing and banking laws and his boyfriend is a top exec at a firm that stands to gain from those laws?" the aide told FOX News. "No media ever takes note? Imagine what would happen if Frank's political affiliation was R instead of D? Imagine what the media would say if [GOP former] Chairman [Mike] Oxley's wife or [GOP presidential nominee John] McCain's wife was a top exec at Fannie for a decade while they wrote the nation's housing and banking laws."
Frank's office did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Frank met Moses in 1987, the same year he became the first openly gay member of Congress.
"I am the only member of the congressional gay spouse caucus," Moses wrote in the Washington Post in 1991. "On Capitol Hill, Barney always introduces me as his lover."
The two lived together in a Washington home until they broke up in 1998, a few months after Moses ended his seven-year tenure at Fannie Mae, where he was the assistant director of product initiatives. According to National Mortgage News, Moses "helped develop many of Fannie Mae's affordable housing and home improvement lending programs."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 12:32:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So you could see how it might get a little laughable if a pub ignored a dem warning and denied the problem even existed and moved in favor of ignoring the warning only to blame the dem when the warning came to pass. This is what BF did. |
Yeah, that's why three years ago and last year he was pushing that very same warning, Bill. What a load of crap you're spewing.
Congressional Republicans in both the House and Senate chose to let bills regulating Freddie and Fannie die in 2003. Barney Frank didn't vote on any of them, because the Republican leadership chose to not put the House bill up for even a committee vote. One of the two Senate bills made it through their finance committee, but Senate Republicans chose to let the bill die rather than put it up for a floor vote. In other words, a small minority of Republicans chose to effectively veto the bill prior to a full Senate vote.
To blame Respresentative Barney Frank for the failure of a Senate bill is simply ludicrous.
Now, on April 5, 2005, H.R.1461, the "Federal Housing Finance Reform Act" was introduced in the House, and referred to the House Committee on Financial Services, where it passed on a 65-5 vote (showing wide bipartisan support) on May 25. On October 25, the whole House began debate on the bill, with most of the debate on the 26th. A half-dozen amendments were offered, some fail, some succeed.
The Oxley amendment (H.AMDT.596) was one of them. It was a "manager's amendment," adding various managerial limits and procedures to the bill, most of which were nothing more than things that the committee forgot. However, it also set up a fund - paid for with a percentage of Freddie and Fannie's income - to help Katrina and Rita victims build or rebuild affordable homes. Barney Frank got up and said that this is a good thing, and he'd be supportive of the amendment except that (1) the funds are only available to groups whose primary purpose is building homes, so church groups that help build affordable housing are left out because their primary purpose is faith, and (2) the funds are not available to any politically-active groups, not even non-partisan groups (a home-building group that also happens to sponsor non-partisan voter-registration drives would be inelligible for money from this fund). The Oxley amendment was added on a 210-205 almost strictly party-line vote (the first voice vote failed).
On the afternoon of the 26th, Barney Frank offers a motion to send the bill back to committee with instructions that the committee should change the language around the two points he had raised earlier, and report the changed bill back to the House floor. Three Republicans, all 196 Democrats and the one independent voted to recommit the bill, but 220 other Republicans said "no." And so later that evening, Barney Frank voted against the bill along with 73 other Democrats, the independent and 15 Republicans.
Yeah, that's right: the bill easily passed the House, 331-90 (with 12 not voting), even with Barney Frank voting against it.
And then on Halloween, the bill was read to the Senate, and referred to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, where it died without even one more vote being taken.
On March 9, 2007, Barney Frank himself sponsered H.R.1427, another "Federal Housing Finance Reform Act." After the obligatory months of committee wrangling and several amendments, on May 22, the bill passed the House with a vote of 313 - 104 (Frank said "Aye" along with 222 other Dems, the Republicans were fairly evenly split, 90-104). On May 24, the bill was read to the Senate and referred to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, where it, too, died without another vote.
Barney Frank, Bill, does not have the power you attribute to him. The 2005 bill that Frank voted against had more support than the 2007 bill that Frank sponsored, but they both failed to provoke enough interest in the Senate to even earn a single committee vote. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 16:19:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
So you could see how it might get a little laughable if a pub ignored a dem warning and denied the problem even existed and moved in favor of ignoring the warning only to blame the dem when the warning came to pass. This is what BF did. |
Yeah, that's why three years ago and last year he was pushing that very same warning, Bill. What a load of crap you're spewing.
Congressional Republicans in both the House and Senate chose to let bills regulating Freddie and Fannie die in 2003. Barney Frank didn't vote on any of them, because the Republican leadership chose to not put the House bill up for even a committee vote. One of the two Senate bills made it through their finance committee, but Senate Republicans chose to let the bill die rather than put it up for a floor vote. In other words, a small minority of Republicans chose to effectively veto the bill prior to a full Senate vote.
To blame Respresentative Barney Frank for the failure of a Senate bill is simply ludicrous.
Now, on April 5, 2005, H.R.1461, the "Federal Housing Finance Reform Act" was introduced in the House, and referred to the House Committee on Financial Services, where it passed on a 65-5 vote (showing wide bipartisan support) on May 25. On October 25, the whole House began debate on the bill, with most of the debate on the 26th. A half-dozen amendments were offered, some fail, some succeed.
The Oxley amendment (H.AMDT.596) was one of them. It was a "manager's amendment," adding various managerial limits and procedures to the bill, most of which were nothing more than things that the committee forgot. However, it also set up a fund - paid for with a percentage of Freddie and Fannie's income - to help Katrina and Rita victims build or rebuild affordable homes. Barney Frank got up and said that this is a good thing, and he'd be supportive of the amendment except that (1) the funds are only available to groups whose primary purpose is building homes, so church groups that help build affordable housing are left out because their primary purpose is faith, and (2) the funds are not available to any politically-active groups, not even non-partisan groups (a home-building group that also happens to sponsor non-partisan voter-registration drives would be inelligible for money from this fund). The Oxley amendment was added on a 210-205 almost strictly party-line vote (the first voice vote failed).
On the afternoon of the 26th, Barney Frank offers a motion to send the bill back to committee with instructions that the committee should change the language around the two points he had raised earlier, and report the changed bill back to the House floor. Three Republicans, all 196 Democrats and the one independent voted to recommit the bill, but 220 other Republicans said "no." And so later that evening, Barney Frank voted against the bill along with 73 other Democrats, the independent and 15 Republicans.
Yeah, that's right: the bill easily passed the House, 331-90 (with 12 not voting), even with Barney Frank voting against it.
And then on Halloween, the bill was read to the Senate, and referred to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, where it died without even one more vote being taken.
On March 9, 2007, Barney Frank himself sponsered H.R.1427, another "Federal Housing Finance Reform Act." After the obligatory months of committee wrangling and several amendments, on May 22, the bill passed the House with a vote of 313 - 104 (Frank said "Aye" along with 222 other Dems, the Republicans were fairly evenly split, 90-104). On May 24, the bill was read to the Senate and referred to the Committee on Banking, Hou |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 16:57:58 [Permalink]
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Do you think if you repeat the same thing enough times it will magically come true, Bill?Originally posted by Bill scott
Just the fact that Barney was the gay lover of Fannie Mae executive Herb Moses at the same time he was considering legislation for said FM stinks to high heaven. |
According to your Fox News report, Barney and Herb split up five years before 2003. Are you delusional or a liar, Bill?| In 2003 the Bush administration warned of needed supervision for FM and FM. Barney Frank insisted that both were in solid shape and that even these debates were putting unneeded stresses on FM and FM thereby causing poor people to not get housing. This was Bushies fault as he could not muster the votes or interest in part thanks to BF. |
"In part." How much of Bush's failure was Frank's fault, Bill? Can you quantify it at all? 75%? 50%? 0.01%? How much of Frank's naysaying (in light of his "no" vote in 2005 failing to stop passage of that year's bill) could really have had an effect on the failure of Senator McCain's bill in 2003?| In 2005 and 2007 BF was now in favor of legislation to supervise FM and FM but failed to get anything passed. |
In 2005, the Republicans chose to let the bill die. In 2007, over half the House Republicans voted against the legislation that Frank had sponsored.| Thereby allowing the biggest financial collapse on his and the democratic controlled do nothing congress's watch. |
He couldn't do it by himself. Frank is not his party's leader. Over half the Republicans voted against his bill in 2007.| What could Bush do at this point? |
What could Frank do at this point? Come on, Bill, what a stupid question. You've been berating Frank for something he said in 2003. What could Bush have done? He could have gotten Republicans to take the threat seriously in 2003, because it's obvious that they did not. Three bills that year, two of which never got Republican-controlled committee votes, and the third the Republicans refused to put to a Senate floor vote. The Republicans were in charge in 2003, Bill. Why weren't they allowing Congresspeople to vote on the bills?After January of 2006.| So therefore my original point stands. Nancy Pelosi is a liar when she takes the floor and claims that this is an entirely republican caused problem and lack of solution when a poster boy like Barney Frank walks the halls and her do nothing congress has done nothing to avoid the mess Barney was in denial ever existed but who's gay lover profited nicely from. |
The Republicans chose to refuse to put bills to a vote which could have regulated the FMs back when it could have made a lot of difference, Bill. Your original point, that Barney Frank caused the problems and single-handedly blocked the solutions, is simply insane. That, plus the fact that you're now trying to change the subject, makes me wonder whether you are delusional or a liar, Bill.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 17:59:24 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Do you think if you repeat the same thing enough times it will magically come true, Bill? |
No. Do you?
| Just the fact that Barney was the gay lover of Fannie Mae executive Herb Moses at the same time he was considering legislation for said FM stinks to high heaven. |
According to your Fox News report, Barney and Herb split up five years before 2003. Are you delusional or a liar, Bill? |
Who cares when the lovers broke up? The fact that Barney Frank was having a gay love affair with Herb Moses while Moses was an executive at Fannie Mae and Frank was the highest ranking dem on a committee overseeing Fannie legislation is an abomination. No way around it.
| In 2003 the Bush administration warned of needed supervision for FM and FM. Barney Frank insisted that both were in solid shape and that even these debates were putting unneeded stresses on FM and FM thereby causing poor people to not get housing. This was Bushies fault as he could not muster the votes or interest in part thanks to BF. |
"In part." How much of Bush's failure was Frank's fault, Bill? Can you quantify it at all? 75%? 50%? 0.01%? How much of Frank's naysaying (in light of his "no" vote in 2005 failing to stop passage of that year's bill) could really have had an effect on the failure of Senator McCain's bill in 2003? |
Are you saying that Frank, the highest ranking dem on the committee, making statements in the media that FM and FM are solid and that any attempt to regulate them will throw poor people on the street has a zero effect on the way anybody voted or no voted on the bill?
| What could Bush do at this point? |
What could Frank do at this point? Come on, Bill, what a stupid question. You've been berating Frank for something he said in 2003. What could Bush have done? He could have gotten Republicans to take the threat seriously in 2003, because it's obvious that they did not. Three bills that year, two of which never got Republican-controlled committee votes, and the third the Republicans refused to put to a Senate floor vote. The Republicans were in charge in 2003, Bill. Why weren't they allowing Congress people to vote on the bills? |
My guess is that they wanted nothing to do with the political hot potato when a collapse may be years off and their reelection bid is not. Then the highest ranking dem on the committee comes out and states in the media the FM and FM are solid and that even debating the matter is putting more people on the streets. This only puts more pressure on anyone who even thinks of such a cruel hearted piece of legislation.
Again, I never claimed the pubs were without guilt. Only that the dems were not.
And Freddie and Fannie collapsed in September of 08. Over two a |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2008 : 22:37:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Are you saying that Frank, the highest ranking dem on the committee, making statements in the media that FM and FM are solid and that any attempt to regulate them will throw poor people on the street has a zero effect on the way anybody voted or no voted on the bill? |
No, I was asking you to quantify the effect that Frank had on the legislation. You obviously think it's closer to 100% than 0%, but I don't think you've got much, if any, basis for such an assessment.| My guess is that they wanted nothing to do with the political hot potato when a collapse may be years off and their reelection bid is not. |
Thanks for suggesting that the politicos were more concerned with keeping their jobs than with doing their jobs. There's plenty of blame to go around, but you focus, for some bizarre reason, on Barney Frank.| Then the highest ranking dem on the committee comes out and states in the media the FM and FM are solid and that even debating the matter is putting more people on the streets. This only puts more pressure on anyone who even thinks of such a cruel hearted piece of legislation. |
And yet, you still haven't presented any evidence that this undoubtably famous and vocal Respresentative had much, if any, influence over the Senators who controlled the fate of two of the 2003 bills. Your argument as been based upon the assumption that Barney Frank speaking out killed the Senate bills. But when we have 2/3rds of Republicans ignoring the wishes of their own party's President (last Monday), it seems that such an argument is so much wishful thinking.| Again, I never claimed the pubs were without guilt. Only that the dems were not. |
So why all the vitriol directed at one particular Democrat, Bill?| And Freddie and Fannie collapsed in September of 08. Over two and half years and Barney even knew they needed supervised yet nothing from this congress. |
Actually, I screwed up. The elections were in November of 2006. Barney Frank took control of the Finance Committee in January 2007. So, more like 18 months than 30, but you didn't care enough for the truth to check my math. So sad.And 9/11 fell on Bush's watch, yet people re-elected him with the idea that he was capable of keeping us safe. Obviously, when things take many years to reach a breaking point, whoever happened to be in office when the last straw falls on the camel's back has a lot less relevance than the sum of the events leading up to disaster.| Barney opposed the legislation in 03 when it failed. Barney was for the bill in 05 and 07, which failed. |
So you are saying, in no uncertain terms, that Barney Frank's opinion on legislation that attempted to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was utterly irrelevant to the question of whether that legislation passed or not. Regardless of Frank's opinion or level of influence, the legislation failed.| Barney was a part of the congress that sat by for two and half years while they knew the true state of FM and FM but got nothing done to stop it. |
But you just stipulated to the fact that Frank's opinion was meaningless. Here is a quick summary of the facts:- 2003: Frank isn't allowed to vote on three bills he disagrees with, all fail.
- 2005: Frank agrees and then disagrees with bill due to one amendment, bill passes House, bill dies in Senate.
- 2007: Frank sponsors bill which passes House with less than 50% Republican support, bill dies in Senate.
How is Frank's flip-flopping even relevant?| When have I ever denied wrong-doing on behalf of the Democrats? Are you delusional or a liar, Bill? |
When you lay the entire blame for the mess on the opposing party and refuse to acknowledge any bad behavior by people even such as Frank. |
You're ignoring what got this all started, Bill: I said Frank was "awesome" for two simple comments of his which would be true regardless of how many Democrats are at fault. You took that and ran with it to the most-absurd of partisan extremes, not even bothering to ask me if I had any criticisms of Democrats for this mess. You simply assumed that I did not. Why the hell should I bother addressing your fantasies?| I am sure Frank running around in the media turning this into the “throw poor people out on the street” bill had a zero effect. |
Well, you've already agreed that Frank's position has had no effect on the overall results...| Again, if it has a factor of 0.001 then Nancy Pelosi is a liar. |
Which is irrelevant to what set you off.| Acknowledge that Nancy Pelosi lied when she stood on the floor and said the entire bailout and need for a bailout is the complete result of nothing more then the failed Bush polices. |
Will you acknowledge that you are willfully and actively engaged in a lie by repeatedly taking a sentence of mine out of its context, even after I explained my meaning to you? That, after all, is decidedly personal. Pelosi, by comparison, wasn't lying about Bill scott.
...Barney Frank is awesome for his witty remark...
— Bill scott
Oh Barney Frank is a man of the people who takes on the big bad repubs and Bushie, yeah Barney!!!!!!!! Vote him in for another 30 years of politics. Yeah Barney!!!!
— Bill scott
This was Bushies fault...
— Bill scott
I am sure Frank running around in the media turning this into the “throw poor people out on the street” bill had a zero effect.
— Bill scott
...the entire bailout and need for a bailout is the complete result of nothing more then the failed Bush polices.
— Bill scott |
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2008 : 07:38:24 [Permalink]
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Ok... I have something...
If, according to Bill, Barney and Herb Moses were lovers, they was indeed conflict of interest and Barney should have step up.
Indeed; if they were an actual heterosexual married couple, the connection would have been public knowledge and would have been dealt with.
Of course, they could not be such a married couple... why? But because of the Republican's attack on gay marriage!
So, you see, it's all Busch fault. Without his targeting of gay marriage during the 2004 election, Barney Frank and Herb Moses being a couple would have been official and the politicos could not have ignored it; hence preventing the abuses and saving the economy!
Curse you Mr. Bush!
Ps: Of course it is a jest! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Teflon Barney
