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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:40:30 [Permalink]
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Again. Negotiations about what? Telling the U.S. to get out of their country and stop lying about them? Telling Israel to stop threatening them? What do you want to negotiate? What does the U.S., who cares nothing about upholding the NPT have to say about Iran? That they shouldn't have supported the Shah? That they shouldn't have supported the ouster of Mossadegh? What could they possibly negotiate?
Obama is willing to respect Iran by offering high level talks without preconditions.
And just how many sides do you think Iran sees, by the way?
That is why negotiations are so important.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:48:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Again. Negotiations about what? Telling the U.S. to get out of their country and stop lying about them? Telling Israel to stop threatening them? What do you want to negotiate? What does the U.S., who cares nothing about upholding the NPT have to say about Iran? That they shouldn't have supported the Shah? That they shouldn't have supported the ouster of Mossadegh? What could they possibly negotiate?
Obama is willing to respect Iran by offering high level talks without preconditions.
And just how many sides do you think Iran sees, by the way?
That is why negotiations are so important.
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Sigh...
You know, I really don't understand what you don't understand. As I said, you seem to view anything we do as criminal. I see diplomacy as our only realistic option. McCain wants to drop bombs on them. Not good. But those are the choices that exist, like it or not.
Again, we will not agree on this. So why belabor the point? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:05:56 [Permalink]
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| As to Hamas, their history is interesting, as is this interview with Robert Dreyfuss |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:18:26 [Permalink]
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No. I don't view everything "we" do as criminal. There is a segment of U.S. that has a warped vision of the universe. That segment has a disproportionate influence on a lot of other segments of society, including U.S. foreign policy.
That's why there are so many people saying that "Ahmadinejad wants to wipe Isreal off the map." Or that so many people believe that Chavez is a brutal dictator.
Sigh...
As I said, you seem to view anything we do as criminal. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 09:24:57 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:42:42 [Permalink]
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Well Gorgo; while the US is guilty of much worse than the average Americans wants to hear; it does not mean that their enemies are the good guys.
Iran is still a dangerous, terrorist supporting theocracy. As was Afghanistan. And Chavez, certainly, is slowly becoming more authoritarian.
All in all, with all its fault and hypocrisy, the reign of the 'American empire' has been more benign that of any such overwhelming power in history.
On a related note; Obama is not the only one being dangerously naive. That might get McCain to shut up in the next debate. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 09:57:22 [Permalink]
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Well, this is what I've been talking about.
"Chavez, certainly, is slowly becoming more authoritarian." Where do you get that? Please show me something, anything, that backs that up at all.
Where did I say that the Ayatollah's are great guys? Please show me something, anything, that backs that up at all.
Afghanistan and Iran are exactly what you'd expect them to be given their past. They were not created by Satan.
....it does not mean that their enemies are the good guys.
Iran is still a dangerous, terrorist supporting theocracy. As was Afghanistan. And Chavez, certainly, is slowly becoming more authoritarian.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 09:59:56 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 10:20:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, this is what I've been talking about.
Afghanistan and Iran are exactly what you'd expect them to be given their past. They were not created by Satan.
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Of course they were not created by Satan. But I'm not really sure what your getting at here. They are exactly what you would expect them to be.....but what does that mean? Does it mean we should not intervene with Iran's plans to acquire nuclear weapons? Should we let North Korea acquire them as well? Should we stop intervening in other countries affairs all together? That's not going to happen. Saints we are not....not by a long shot. But I still think we are obligated to protect our interests and the interests of our allies. Sometimes we do that very well...other times we FUBAR it. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 10:43:51 [Permalink]
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If we want something, we should act like we want it and set an example. If we want people to abide by the NPT, we should abide by it. If we want an international law, we should help create a fair, reasonable international law and support it. If we want people to be have integrity, we'd probably do better not to lie to them or about them.
If we want Afghanistan to be a reasonable place to live, we'd probably do better not to have Brzezinski and others screwing things up. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 10:58:12 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 10:59:31 [Permalink]
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Cuz we're too old to beat anything but dead horses.
Again, we will not agree on this. So why belabor the point?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 11:37:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Cuz we're too old to beat anything but dead horses.
Again, we will not agree on this. So why belabor the point?
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Gorgo, why are you going out of your way to top post? Especially since it's generally considered bad etiquette. When you hit the reply button, the cursor automatically defaults to the proper position. But the way you do it, readers see your comment, then what you are responding to, which is backwards. I guess I can't fathom why anyone would do such a thing on purpose.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 11:49:52 [Permalink]
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| Gorgo, why are you going out of your way to top post? Especially since |
Do what?| it's generally considered bad etiquette. When you hit the reply button, the cursor automatically defaults to the proper position. But the way you do it, readers see your comment, then what you are responding to, which is backwards. I guess I can't fathom why anyone would do such a thing on purpose. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 12:28:36 [Permalink]
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"Chavez, certainly, is slowly becoming more authoritarian." Where do you get that? Please show me something, anything, that backs that up at all.
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Sure. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 12:45:22 [Permalink]
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| I really do appreciate it, Simon, I hadn't seen that. I'll give you something much shorter to read about George Soros and Human Rights Watch while I take some time to look into that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 13:12:59 [Permalink]
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Thanks.
While I knew of a connection between Soros (and its human right watch) and the US as well as of his, more recent, falling out with the neo-cons; I did not know that his connection ran so deep.
Thanks for the link; it was an interesting reading. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 13:59:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. HumbertI guess I can't fathom why anyone would do such a thing on purpose.
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Actually, I appreciate that, and even though I don't think we're on Usenet anymore, I think I might try it for a while and see if I can lower the dosage on my psych meds. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 14:00:58 |
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Debate #2
