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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 14:28:50 [Permalink]
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Personally; I'd be for getting rid of this tax exemption bit alltogether.
It is automatically discriminatory toward atheists association; it does not bring anything; many ulta-rich pastors are using it to avoid contributing to society and it encourages people abuse (the 'church' of scientology self admitely abuse this).
Keep the law for charity-related activity; including religious based one as well as secular; but not for proselitising. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2008 : 14:43:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Personally; I'd be for getting rid of this tax exemption bit alltogether. |
Of course by taxing them, we have to give them a political voice. "Taxation without representation" isn't something I'm in favor of.| It is automatically discriminatory toward atheists association... |
Two things, there. (A) To get a 501(c)3 exemption, one does not have to be a church, and (B) the courts have ruled that for legal purposes, atheism is a religion like any other (for example, you can't be fired because you're an atheist, because that would be "religious" discrimination). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 16:10:36 [Permalink]
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| Oh.... I know; let's found the 'Church of Atheo'... all the ceremonies will be performed by miming them! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 16:47:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Oh.... I know; let's found the 'Church of Atheo'... all the ceremonies will be performed by miming them!
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Say no evil...?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 21:36:07 [Permalink]
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James Randi shows exactly how a tax exempt organization should conduct itself when it comes to politics:
| I warn you: this is essentially a political message. Now, as most of you know, the JREF is a 501(c)3, tax-exempt organization, and we may not officially be involved in matters of a political nature. Though this message was prepared by me on October 19th, it was stored until now so that the nationwide process of voting on November 4th would be over and done with – though the results may not yet have been made known as you read this. This way, we cannot influence the election in any way. |
See? Not hard. I doubt Randi would complain that his right to express himself has been unduly hampered by following the law.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2008 : 14:40:52 [Permalink]
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Mycroft, what was the purpose of the edit of this post?
Just curious...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2008 : 17:37:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Mycroft, what was the purpose of the edit of this post?
Just curious...
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I corrected a typo. The last line read, "Neither your nor I believe..." and I changed it to the correct "Neither you nor I..."
I though about leaving a note of explanation, but didn't. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2008 : 18:27:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think it is dangerous to allow any tax-exempt entity to sway a political issue. I think secularists should lobby to have the "no-politics" rule for churches and other tax-exempt entities extended to ballot propositions.
Otherwise, we will see more and more situations like the persecution of same-sex couples.
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The problem I have with this point of view is it seeks to set the rules of debate based on the desired outcome. It doesn't fit the definition of gerrymandering, but the idea is certainly similar.
While I agree with you that the protection of minority rights should be the exception to majority rule, you shouldn't need to rig the elections to accomplish that. Our system of government includes a system of checks and balances.
If minority rights are not protected enough in our system, then we need to look at improving the system, not making it harder for religious conservatives to be politically active. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2008 : 19:12:56 [Permalink]
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But the two are not connected.
The law that is being broken by Comfort has nothing to do with protecting minorities.
Not only do we need to improve the system as far as protecting minorities go; but we also need to apply it as far as the separation of church and state goes.
But it is two separated issues. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 00:51:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think it is dangerous to allow any tax-exempt entity to sway a political issue. I think secularists should lobby to have the "no-politics" rule for churches and other tax-exempt entities extended to ballot propositions.
Otherwise, we will see more and more situations like the persecution of same-sex couples.
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The problem I have with this point of view is it seeks to set the rules of debate based on the desired outcome. It doesn't fit the definition of gerrymandering, but the idea is certainly similar.
While I agree with you that the protection of minority rights should be the exception to majority rule, you shouldn't need to rig the elections to accomplish that. Our system of government includes a system of checks and balances.
If minority rights are not protected enough in our system, then we need to look at improving the system, not making it harder for religious conservatives to be politically active.
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Religious conservatives are welcome to be as active as they like, so long as they play by the same rules as everyone else.
What I don't care for is the public being called upon to finance such politicking. That's what a tax-exempt status gives them, when they abuse it.
I remember reading some years back about a town in Texas which has many large churches, none of which pay taxes or otherwise significantly support the community economically. The town is nearly broke, but they are still required to pave the streets leading to the megachurches, and provide fire and police protection. That's bad enough all by itself, IMO. Using that kind of privileged untaxed status to provide a base for political campaigning is simply way beyond the pale.
Church (preaching religion) or State (political campaigning). One or the other.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/15/2008 00:52:02 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 08:44:10 [Permalink]
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| Mycroft seems to be under the impression that only conservative charities' voices will be limited by the law. Or maybe he thinks that conservatives are incapable of forming groups like MoveOn.org and so need to do their political activism through churches. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 10:40:20 [Permalink]
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Mycroft:
If minority rights are not protected enough in our system, then we need to look at improving the system, not making it harder for religious conservatives to be politically active. |
Honestly, you keep coming back to this as though if you say it enough times, it will be so. No one is stopping religious conservatives from being politically active. In fact, they are very active. Obeying laws that they have agreed to is the issue. Same goes for more liberal churches as Dave has just pointed out.
You have based your whole argument on a faulty premise. And it has become tiresome... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 16:30:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Mycroft seems to be under the impression that only conservative charities' voices will be limited by the law. Or maybe he thinks that conservatives are incapable of forming groups like MoveOn.org and so need to do their political activism through churches.
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Wrong on both counts.
I think it should be possible to consider the fairness of a rule or behavior independent of whether it serves a liberal or conservative agenda.
Is that hard to understand? |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 16:35:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mycroft:
If minority rights are not protected enough in our system, then we need to look at improving the system, not making it harder for religious conservatives to be politically active. |
Honestly, you keep coming back to this as though if you say it enough times, it will be so. No one is stopping religious conservatives from being politically active. In fact, they are very active. Obeying laws that they have agreed to is the issue. Same goes for more liberal churches as Dave has just pointed out.
You have based your whole argument on a faulty premise. And it has become tiresome...
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Halfmooner specifically cited the goal of making it more difficult for religious conservatives to advance their agenda in his proposed rule change. I personally think it's more desirable to try not to consider who's agenda is advanced when considering what rules should be in place.
Why is that hard to understand? |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 17:17:46 [Permalink]
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The law how it works now is that the guy that makes his money writing about Jeebus is exempt of taxes; while the guy that does so writing about about Spider-Man does not.
I don't think its fair, and the least Jeebus boy can do is accept a few restrictions on what he can use his tax-free Jeebus books about. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 11/15/2008 17:22:36 |
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How do you report somone to the IRS?
