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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2008 : 13:40:17
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I have been participating on very interesting thread.
While, I find this conversation very interesting, I think that the deviation from the original topic has been going on for long enough to justify the creation of the present thread.
So; the conversation is now about how could atheism gain a wider acceptance from the average American public.
At this point, the conversation stated that:
-PZ Myers' objective may not include trying to gain acceptance atheists.
-If it was the case, other, less confrontational strategies, like that of Nisbet, may be more efficient.
-That the wider acceptance that homosexuals gained in recent decades, maybe, could be analysed and use as a model for atheism.
-That, however, homosexuality presented itself through various mean to the general public: low profile attitude of many homosexuals; public, in your face, events and demonstrations and through the caricature of homosexuality often presented in the media.
Hum... I think that's where we got.
No consensus achieved yet, but still an interesting discussion.
So... speaking of media and role-models...
Which out-spoken atheists are currently presented by the media to the public?
I can think of only two fictional characters: Dr. House and Dr. Cox (from the TV series scrubs).
Both are pretty similar in fact, loud, often agressive or rude, obnoxious character with a taste for abuse (both substance abuse; drugs and alcool respectively; and for the abuse of their entourage).
We also have a couple of real characters, but I am not sure how well known they are from the general public.
And, once again, both of these characters, Dawkins and Myers, could be considered 'abrasive' and obnoxious, renforcing the stereotype.
Carl Sagan, certainly, is better known, but how many people realize that he was an atheist? Same thing for Freud and Mark Twain; by the way.
All in all; thinking about how atheism is sold to the general public, I am not sure how appealing the package is...
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 14:00:39 [Permalink]
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I'm all for pushing critical thinking. I'm not so big on pushing atheism. If critical thinking became the default method for evaluating claims, you would naturally see more atheists and agnostics.
That said, if people feel threatened by Dawkins or Myers, that's not our problem... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 14:42:09 [Permalink]
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The problem runs deeper than just atheism's portrayal in the media. Critical thinking itself is devalued on purpose.
In The X-Files, Scully was the token rationalist who, nine times out of ten, was simply wrong in her appraisals that there were no ETs, shapeshifters, death cults, vampires, etc..
Even House has entertained the life-after-death question seriously enough to electrocute himself in an attempt to see "beyond."
The problem appears to be that most people think that reality is boring. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:04:35 [Permalink]
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There are probably a lot of high-profile atheists out there. Sometimes its just best to not advertise though, because its likely to cause a certain amount of discrimination against you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:10:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I'm all for pushing critical thinking. I'm not so big on pushing atheism. If critical thinking became the default method for evaluating claims, you would naturally see more atheists and agnostics.
That said, if people feel threatened by Dawkins or Myers, that's not our problem...
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And this would be my position as well. My beef isn't with religion per se. It's with irrationality in general, but specifically with the wide-spread belief that faith is noble and a valid way of knowing. I don't see the struggle as a PR campaign for atheism, but rather a negative campaign against faith and irrationality. Theists are going to be resistant to this message, obviously. But that's how this battle needs to be "framed." Put those promoting faith and superstition on the defensive and keep them there. They can whine and holler and call atheists meanies until they are blue in the face, but in the end they can't back up their core assertions, and that's what needs to be pointed out--relentlessly and without mercy.
Will this win more converts to atheism? Not necessarily. But the goal is to diminish religion's role in public discourse and policy making. To so utterly obliterate religion's false veneer of intellectual respectability that no sane person would ever turn to it for answers. To make religious leaders appear as clownish buffoons not deserving of a seat at the table of leadership. To make theists more cautious about wearing their irrationality on their sleeves for fear of being labeled backward or ignorant. In short, to no longer allow the absurdities of religion to pass uncritically and unquestioningly as normal and virtuous in mainstream society.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/08/2008 15:15:41 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:18:38 [Permalink]
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| There are probably a lot of high-profile atheists out there. Sometimes its just best to not advertise though, because its likely to cause a certain amount of discrimination against you. |
But; if all the atheists out of the closet are misanthropic assholes that feel validated by people hatred torwad them; it is certainly not going to help atheism to overcome prejudism...
| Even House has entertained the life-after-death question seriously enough to electrocute himself in an attempt to see "beyond." |
If I remember this episode correctly; somebody was arguing that House atheist viewpoint was worth less than his, because he did not have been 'beyond' and did not have all the data. To which House electrocuted himself; went through clinical death and came back basically saying 'Yeah... I still think that you are full of it...'.
Which is quite awesome.
| The problem appears to be that most people think that reality is boring. |
Well it is; at least, it is more boring that just making up whatever you find more entertaining. It is why I am quite the Science-Fiction/Fantastic aficionado. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:37:00 [Permalink]
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I'm an atheist, and pretty hard-line about it, as I think religion and theistic belief in particular are the primary, though not exclusive, wellsprings of irrationality. But I don't think being an theist is any great honor. I simply think it's a position of not being infected with a particularly virulent meme. I'm happy enough being an atheist, just as I'm happy enough not to suffer from tuberculosis. But it doesn't make me special.
Dawkins and PZ Myers (and the Four Horsemen), I think, are very effective. Many of us who follow them do not think of them as being any kind of intellectual elitists. They, and not those who water down their atheistic expression, I think, have made this thriving movement known as the "New Atheism" such a rapidly growing success. If continuing to do what doesn't work is stupid, it also is stupid to stop doing that which actually works.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/08/2008 16:54:36 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:40:08 [Permalink]
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| Skeptical thought of a certain kind is the goal, not atheism. I think outspoken skeptics like Randi, Dawkins and others create the same kind of "revolution" that outspoken skeptics of racial discrimination and gender discrimination did. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:47:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But; if all the atheists out of the closet are misanthropic assholes that feel validated by people hatred torwad them; it is certainly not going to help atheism to overcome prejudism... |
But making this about personalities is exactly what the religious want. They are trying to put atheists on the defensive. The correct response to this sort of spin is to say "but it doesn't matter if you think we're misanthropic assholes, we're right." Facts matter, not emotional pleas. Making the issue about who's followers are the happiest or most cheerful is the best way to play into the hands of the faith-based reality deniers.
It would be a mistake to let them dictate the terms of the debate. The best defense is always a good offense. Just going around trying to defuse bad PR and put out fires is a great way to feel busy while changing nothing.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/08/2008 15:48:19 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:57:09 [Permalink]
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You are making a good point; I think.
But, I think, although I am not sure we have the same priorities.
For me, I think it is important that people can say that they are atheists without other people being prejudiced against them. Or that some politician can meet with atheists without his political opponent try to use against him.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 16:04:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I think it is important that people can say that they are atheists without other people being prejudiced against them. Or that some politician can meet with atheists without his political opponent try to use against him.
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Well that's the real trick isn't it and it will be a loooooong time coming. I think Kil has it right, however I'm seriously beginning to wonder how many people are capable....let alone willing. Fear of the unknown (and death in particular) appear to be HUGE barriers to overcome. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 21:09:04 [Permalink]
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| But it worked in Europe. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2008 : 23:43:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But it worked in Europe.
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You know what I think worked in Europe....they have a national religion.....the government takes care of it so you don't have to  |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 00:08:01 [Permalink]
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England does; and so does Sweden.
But most countries do not, in fact. But, at least in the case of France, anti-clericalism is an old tradition dating back from the French revolution, all the way to the second world war, during which the Catholic church took side with the Monarchy and against the Republic. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 19:23:34 [Permalink]
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| Which out-spoken atheists are currently presented by the media to the public? |
I suppose that Ricky Gervais might not be that big on that side of the Atlantic. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 04:13:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
| Which out-spoken atheists are currently presented by the media to the public? |
I suppose that Ricky Gervais might not be that big on that side of the Atlantic.
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Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie collaborated as Jeeves and Wooster. Here are some clips about their views. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Religion… or lack thereof
