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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2008 : 14:35:02 [Permalink]
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I agree with Simon, and H. Humbert, that the if the loss of this guy's faith is the cause of his suicide, then his parent's indoctrination and failure to teach him how to deal with different points of views is at the heart of the matter.
If I ever have kids, I'd try to teach them to critically analyse all options. Then give 'em Pascal's Wager and trust my kids to make the 'right' decision.
Edit: spelling and grammar |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/22/2008 14:37:17 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2008 : 14:45:44 [Permalink]
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Ok, the article is from World Nudnik Daily, which automatically lends it suspect. Further, virtually all of it is anecdote from mainly close, heavily-Christian sources -- friends of the family & so forth.
There as many reasons for suicide as there are people who commit it, and while Dawkins' book might have been a contributing factor, I very much doubt that it was a main one. And if drugs were involved (nothing in the article about it, nor autopsy results), all bets are off.
Jesse did, what, four years in the military? That is long enough to have been exposed to great many viewpoints concerning just about everything. And he made up his mind......
I think that he was very close with his family and he feared their reaction -- utter devastation! -- to his apostasy, and feared being spiritually estranged from them.
The bookmark on the last page of God Delusion means nothing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 17:34:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
No, teaching YEC is wrong by definition. I only meant to point out that not every little thing that gets taught incorrectly is indoctrination. But to get an entire field wrong, to teach things counter to all mainstream findings, to ignore verifiable facts and to manufacture evidence--all of that is deeply unethical behavior, and it intrinsic to the creationist movement. There is no way to teach YEC in an ethical manner, just as there is no ethical way to teach Holocaust denial.
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So you think the parents should teach something they don't agree with, just because all the other people say that they're wrong? If it was something you believed in, would you teach your child something you would spend your life fighting against?
Sure, there is all the evidence, but when your philosophy is faith first and evidence second, what the hell does that matter? Or did you come up with some new and ground breaking way to prove that a philosophy is wrong, whatever the hell that means.
But here's the kicker. You don't know what they believe. You don't know that they ignore facts. You don't know, for example, that they don't believe God manufactured all the evidence in order to test believers. Ridiculous in my opinion, sure, but you're speculating based upon the standard YEC. In general, that's fine, but when you go accusing parents of being a direct cause in the death of their son, you better get your damn facts straight. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/22/2008 17:47:07 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 18:14:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
So you think the parents should teach something they don't agree with, just because all the other people say that they're wrong? |
Ricky, it's not that other people say creationists are wrong, creationists are wrong. This is not about equal-but-different points of view. These people are guilty of denying reality.
| If it was something you believed in, would you teach your child something you would spend your life fighting against? |
I have enough integrity and morals that I wouldn't indoctrinate my children into an anti-factual belief system.
| Sure, there is all the evidence, but when your philosophy is faith first and evidence second, what the hell does that matter? |
Then that "philosophy" has consequences, Ricky, like the mental anguish that comes with believing all of reality is a lie. Yes, people can choose to believe that. But they don't get to wash their hands of the implications of believing that. Beliefs have consequences, Ricky.
| Or did you come up with some new and ground breaking way to prove that a philosophy is wrong, whatever the hell that means. |
Yeah, my system is called "if your 'philosophy' doesn't match reality, then it's bullshit." You can choose to reject that fundamental viewpoint, of course, but then don't complain when reality intrudes on your little fantasy and causes psychological strain.
| But here's the kicker. You don't know what they believe. You don't know that they ignore facts. You don't know, for example, that they don't believe God manufactured all the evidence in order to test believers. Ridiculous in my opinion, sure, but you're speculating based upon the standard YEC. |
It doesn't matter how they arrived at their insane beliefs, all it matters is that they are insane. And these insane YEC beliefs cause a great many people mental anguish when they finally learn a little bit about the world. What about that is even controversial?
| In general, that's fine, but when you go accusing parents of being a direct cause in the death of their son, you better get your damn facts straight. |
Oh please. Look, if you teach your children insane fucked-up beliefs, you will have insane, fucked-up children (or at least children that face huge obstacles to overcome). And that's bad parenting. If the father thinks being exposed to education and facts killed his son, then he is a monster for leaving his son so psychological vulnerable in the first place. My sympathy for these cultists is precisely zero.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/22/2008 18:20:52 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 18:23:01 [Permalink]
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| Having a son who debates does not lend any credibility to the idea that somehow he didn't know how to handle arguments from opposing views. |
Depends, from my experience; a lot of Right wing Christian 'debate' is nothing more than building a retarded strawman and then demolishing it, at most adding a couple of misunderstood mine quotes.
Realizing that there were actual arguments for the other sides must have been shocking indeed.
But Filthy is right, we mostly have the simplistic view of RR apologetics to go by. The reality is probably more complex than they want to admit.
Suicide and depression generally are complex phenomena with multiple causing factors... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 19:05:54 [Permalink]
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I have enough integrity and morals that I wouldn't indoctrinate my children into an anti-factual belief system.
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You say it's indoctrination, so I ask you what evidence you have that the parents have indoctrinated Jesse. Without even acknowledging my request for evidence of your assertion, you state that any teaching of YEC is wrong. So I started talking about teaching YEC. Now you're back to indoctrination. HH, can you please pick one?
Then that "philosophy" has consequences, Ricky, like the mental anguish that comes with believing all of reality is a lie. Yes, people can choose to believe that. But they don't get to wash their hands of the implications of believing that. Beliefs have consequences, Ricky.
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So it sounds like you have problems with their philosophy and the applications of it rather than their beliefs on evolution. Isn't that the root cause, anyway? Their belief of faith over evidence is part of the reason they are YECs to begin with. It is why YECs struggle to defend the literal interpretation of the Bible whenever possible, and often provide ingenious or false arguments to protect their beliefs.
Before going on, I want to see if you agree with the above. Because I don't think I can find anything immoral about faith > evidence. Surely I think it will lead to unfavorable results much more often than evidence > faith, but I don't think that implies it is immoral.
| Yeah, my system is called "if your 'philosophy' doesn't match reality, then it's bullshit." You can choose to reject that fundamental viewpoint, of course, but then don't complain when reality intrudes on your little fantasy and causes psychological strain. |
You can't prove one philosophy to be greater than another (save pathologies), because any metric you use to count what is important must be based on a philosophy.
| My sympathy for these cultists is precisely zero. |
That's funny, because more and more it is seeming like that's precisely how much knowledge you have about them. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 19:32:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
You say it's indoctrination, so I ask you what evidence you have that the parents have indoctrinated Jesse. Without even acknowledging my request for evidence of your assertion, you state that any teaching of YEC is wrong. So I started talking about teaching YEC. Now you're back to indoctrination. HH, can you please pick one? |
Why do I need to pick one? Teaching YEC is a form of immoral indoctrination because YEC is anti-factual. You can't ask me "Well, what if something you believed in passionately was anti-factual?" because I would never believe it to begin with. It's the equivalent of asking someone when they stopped beating their wife. It's a loaded question that I can't honestly answer the way you pose it.
| Before going on, I want to see if you agree with the above. Because I don't think I can find anything immoral about faith > evidence. |
I linked to an entire essay about why it's unethical to place faith over evidence. Did you bother to read it?
| My sympathy for these cultists is precisely zero. |
That's funny, because more and more it is seeming like that's precisely how much knowledge you have about them. |
I know the father blames learning about atheism and evolution in college with his son's death. That reveals a hell of a lot more than you're admitting.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 20:49:53 [Permalink]
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Didn't we have a whole thread on duty and evidence?
I'm with HH on this one.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2008 : 21:30:46 [Permalink]
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Ah, that's the thread I was looking for. Yeah, it's a pretty important reference, as it is on that basis that I'm considering creationist beliefs unethical.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2008 : 02:17:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Originally posted by Simon
Depends, from my experience; a lot of Right wing Christian 'debate' is nothing more than building a retarded strawman and then demolishing it, at most adding a couple of misunderstood mine quotes.
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The point was not that he is a good or skilled debater, but that he has heard of arguments from the other side before. Unless he's deaf, he would have to in a debate.
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The point I was making is precisely that many such 'debaters' do not actually hear the arguments from the other side.
Instead, they only hear straw men and caricature of these arguments... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2008 : 05:37:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Having a son who debates does not lend any credibility to the idea that somehow he didn't know how to handle arguments from opposing views.
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Don't you remember our debates over at Skeptic Times?
Those morons loved to debate, but they couldn't handle opposing views.
And look what hoops the_ignored have to jump through at Ray Comfort's and Dip-shit Dan's...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Suicide blamed on ‘God Delusion’
