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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2008 : 13:46:03
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Well, here's a pretty piece from AiG:
"by Andrew A. Snelling
December 10, 2008
Fossil ammonites from lower Cretaceous mudstones in northern California, which are supposedly 112–120 million years old and biostratigraphic index fossils, were sampled along with fossil wood buried with them. Fragments of two fossil ammonite shells and four pieces of fossil wood yielded easily measurable radiocarbon (14C) equivalent to apparent 14C ages of between 36,400±350 and 48,710±930 years for the ammonites, and between 32,780±230 and 42,390±510 years for the wood. Any contamination with modern 14C due to the sample environment and handling was eliminated by the laboratory's severe pre-treatment procedure. Any alleged contamination due to sample combustion or AMS instrument background was more than compensated for by the laboratory background of 0.077 pMC already having been subtracted from the reported results. The ammonite shells could not have been contaminated in the ground by replacement with modern carbonate 14C either, because they yielded almost identical 14C apparent ages as the wood buried and fossilized with them. It was concluded that the measured 14C is in situ radiocarbon intrinsic to the ammonites and wood when they were buried and fossilized. So once past conditions in the atmosphere and biosphere are taken into account, their true ages are consistent with their burial during the Genesis Flood only about 4,300 years ago, when the ocean waters washed sediments and ammonites onto the continents"
This nonsense copies a screed published in Creation ex Nihilo, in 2000 -- same story, different place, same author. 
"by Andrew Snelling
First published in:
Creation Ex Nihilo 22(2):44–47
March–May 2000
For most people, the discovery of fossilised wood in a quarry would not be newsworthy. However, some pieces recently found embedded in limestone alongside some well-known ‘index' fossils for the ‘Jurassic period' (supposedly 142–205.7 million years ago) have proved highly significant.
It is not generally realised that index fossils are still crucial to the millions-of-years geological dating, in spite of the advent of radioactive ‘dating' techniques. Not all locations have rocks suitable for radioactive ‘dating', but in any case, if a radioactive ‘date' disagrees with a fossil ‘date' then it is the latter which usually has precedence.
Finding this fossil wood in Jurassic limestone suggested the possibility of testing for the presence of radiocarbon (14C). Most geologists, however, would not bother with such tests because they wouldn't expect any 14C to still exist. With a half-life of only 5,570 years, no 14C should be detectable after about 50,000 years, let alone millions of years, even with the most sensitive equipment. So this fossilised wood from the Marlstone Rock Bed of Jurassic ‘age' had potential for testing the validity of the fossil dating technique underpinning modern geology."
Ok, would someone be kind enough to enlighten me as to how a piece of wood, completely mineralized, would show any carbon at all? I'd be most interested as well, to learn how carbon was found in an ammonite shell, which had no carbon even when the animal was alive.
Yeesh!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 12/10/2008 13:55:43
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2008 : 14:17:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I'd be most interested as well, to learn how carbon was found in an ammonite shell, which had no carbon even when the animal was alive. |
Calcium carbonate is what the shell is made from. However, mollusks don't get their carbon from the air, but instead from limestone, which is very old carbon, indeed. Makes marine mollusks completely unsuitable for carbon dating.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 14:46:46 [Permalink]
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Weren't most of the Ammonites slaughtered by an Israeli army? In that case they shouldn't be more than a couple of thousand years old.
Maybe I got the history wrong?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/10/2008 14:50:23 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 14:51:31 [Permalink]
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Indeed, mollusks can not be dated using radio-carbon methods.
Furthermore, 12–120 million years old is way past the range of values radio-carbon is useful for. Indeed, the second quote suggest that somebody told him that. That he went ahead with the tests anyway and now complain about the non-nonsensical results is nothing short of disingenuous.
Furthermore, the second quote suggests that he does not understand the elementary concept of the half-life of elements.
Basically, his position is similar to that of somebody hitting nails with a screwdriver, complaining about his 'technique' not working and extrapolating from this anecdote that the whole existence of hardware stores is some kind of conspiracy. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:21:27 [Permalink]
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The following was extracted from an August 27, 1996 post by Howard Hershey (hershey@indiana.edu). Additional information was added.
Carbon exists in the atmosphere in the form of carbon dioxide, CO2. It can be present either as stable carbon 12 or unstable carbon 14. Carbon 14 is formed from ordinary nitrogen 14 in the atmosphere by the action of cosmic rays. The cosmic rays produce neutrons which bombard the nitrogen atoms, resulting in a neutron being absorbed and a proton being ejected. The N-14 atom of 7 protons and 7 neutrons is transformed into a C-14 atom of 6 protons and 8 neutrons. The carbon-14 atom immediately combines with atmospheric oxygen to form carbon dioxide. A steady state results in which the rate of decomposition of carbon 14 is matched by the rate of formation of new C-14 by cosmic rays. The result is that carbon 14 is present as a constant percentage of the total carbon in the atmosphere, although it does change slightly depending upon the amount of cosmic radiation reaching the atmosphere. However, a correction can be made on the basis of carbon 14 readings on items whose age is known from counting tree rings and archeological records.
Trees and plants that get their carbon from the carbon dioxide of the atmosphere will, while they are living have a ratio of carbon 14 to carbon 12 equal to that in the atmosphere. When these organisms die, they no longer ingest C-14 from the atmosphere. Carbon 14 decays at a particular rate and is not replaced. Thus, measuring the degree to which the carbon 14 level is less than that in the atmosphere provides a measure of time since death.
Mollusks, unlike plants et al., get the carbon for their shells from ancient carbonate and not the atmosphere. Ancient carbon is already depleted in C-14. Therefore mollusk shells are inappropriate for carbon dating because they do not, even when alive, have C-14 at the level present in the atmosphere. The level of C-14 in mollusk shells reflects their source of carbonate.
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Excellent! ask and you shall recieve -- I probably should have known about this, but din't. Heh, I was not a litle amused to see John Woodmorappe amongst the references.
Edited to fix link. Woodmorappe is a trip!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/10/2008 17:25:55 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:39:08 [Permalink]
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From the learned paper about the ammonites and fossil wood found in northern California:| Field trips into the study area were undertaken in 2006 by, and with, Pastor Al Franklin, of Grace Baptist Church in Redding, because of his knowledge of the area and its fossil localities, and because of the permission he has to enter the private lands of the area, granted him by the landholders. Four suitable ammonite fossils were successfully found that each had fossilized wood very closely associated with it, the ammonite shells and the wood usually being in direct physical contact with one another. |
So a country preacher finds Cretaceous ammonites and far more modern wood fossils jumbled together -- actually in contact, sometimes.
No cause to think there has been contamination of the ammonites by the wood, -- or vice versa, though.  Two whole samples of the ammonites were tested by radiocarbon dating to be roughly 40,000 years old. If that were not in error (it almost certain is, due to lab error or pious fraud), clearly this study would be something like finding the Devonian Bunny.
But wait! 40,000 years, rough or not, is still way, way unbiblical by an order of magnitude! Thus the objective researchers saw a need to run the results through a final Biblical sleight-of-hand bullshit filter to fix the awkward numbers!:| Therefore, it was concluded that the measured 14C is in situ radiocarbon intrinsic to the ammonites and wood when they were buried and fossilized, so that they are very young, not 112–120 million years old. Furthermore, because the earth's stronger magnetic field in the recent past reduced the atmospheric 14C production rate, and because the recent Genesis Flood removed so much carbon from the biosphere and buried it, the measured apparent radiocarbon ages are still much higher than the true ages of the fossil ammonites and wood. So their true ages are consistent with their burial during the Genesis Flood only, about 4,300 years ago, when the ocean waters washed sediments and ammonites onto this continental land. |
Presto-fraudo! And there you have Noah in the picture!
[Edit: The above written before I read posts mentioning why mollusks absorb carbon from old limestone, not from the atmosphere. That by itself completely invalidates these pious liars.]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/10/2008 19:12:56 |
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One more time!
