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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 01/08/2009 : 16:35:00
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So I've been thinking about this for a little while and I wonder if any of the brilliant minds here at SFN could help me answer this question.
There are thousands of scientists, astronauts, agents, and governmental officials with various degrees of security clearance currently working in the government today. What happens as these people retire and begin to age? Is there a special facility that functions as sort of a retirement home for some of these people? Imagine if a nuclear scientist started to lose his marbles in later life and blabbed to everyone he met about all the projects he worked on in his career. I bet foreign agents would seek out such older people and try to earn their trust and see what they could find out. Put a Russian spy into an old fogey's home and see what he can learn from that retired scientist over oatmeal.
So, does our government have anyplace to care for some of these people as they age? Is there some old person's home where government secrets are safe? Thoughts?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 16:49:39 [Permalink]
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Not as far as I know.
But then, I'd expect that a lot of this sensitive informations gets old to the point of uselessness very quicly. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 16:54:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Not as far as I know.
But then, I'd expect that a lot of this sensitive informations gets old to the point of uselessness very quicly.
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Probably. But some secrets stay classified for 50, 60, 70 years or more. Plus, some people might be fairly advanced in years when in the culmination of their research.
Anyway, if such a place doesn't exist, I may just have to invent one (for story purposes).
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 17:21:21 [Permalink]
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I don't think there are too many secrets that stay classified that long any more.
Are you insinuating that most older folks lose their marbles at some point? I don't think that is the case. I've known plenty of old folks who were still sharp as a tack when they finally succumbed to old age.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 17:39:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
I don't think there are too many secrets that stay classified that long any more. |
Well, I'm not sure about that. I bet there are some secrets which will stay classified forever. But even assuming you are correct, what about in the past?
| Are you insinuating that most older folks lose their marbles at some point? |
Not at all. Just a percentage. It's a risk, and those in the business of protecting secrets tend to try to manage whatever risks they can.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 18:20:47 [Permalink]
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| If an old scientist loses his marbles to the point where he starts babbling secrets to anyone, then his stories won't be considered trustworthy. Giving credence to the obviously befuddled is a losing proposition. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 18:59:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If an old scientist loses his marbles to the point where he starts babbling secrets to anyone, then his stories won't be considered trustworthy. Giving credence to the obviously befuddled is a losing proposition. |
Well, there might be elements of truth to it. You guys really aren't trying to think like a spy.  Nations have been known to risk lives for mere scraps of intel.
Plus, the person doesn't have to be stark raving mad. Plenty of elderly people simply lose their judgment. Why do you think so many scams target the elderly? Are they always totally senile? No, but they can be trusting and forgetful.
Jeez, I really didn't think the basic premise would be this controversial. The U.S. wiretaps innocent civilians and locks up people without trial for simply being accused of engaging in terrorism. Is it really that extraordinary to think they'd be at least as uncompromising when it came to protecting their own secrets?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/08/2009 19:04:08 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 19:22:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, there might be elements of truth to it. You guys really aren't trying to think like a spy. Nations have been known to risk lives for mere scraps of intel. |
Reliable intel.| Plus, the person doesn't have to be stark raving mad. Plenty of elderly people simply lose their judgment. Why do you think so many scams target the elderly? Are they always totally senile? No, but they can be trusting and forgetful. |
Meaning the intel won't be reliable. It'd have to be verified by risking more lives by spying on someone reliable with the same info, so why go after the unreliable guy in the first place?| Jeez, I really didn't think the basic premise would be this controversial. The U.S. wiretaps innocent civilians and locks up people without trial for simply being accused of engaging in terrorism. Is it really that extraordinary to think they'd be at least as uncompromising when it came to protecting their own secrets? |
We've got evidence of those things. We don't have evidence of old U.S. scientists being disappeared, or doddering around together in an old-folks home surrounded by concertina wire. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 19:30:21 [Permalink]
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| Hm, wonder if there's a secret Sun City in the outskirts of Los Alamos? |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 19:32:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
We don't have evidence of old U.S. scientists being disappeared, or doddering around together in an old-folks home surrounded by concertina wire. |
Well, there are military hospitals. So are you saying that you know for certain that none exist for patients with special security clearance? Because that was my original question. I'm not trying to make any claim here, just investigate a possibility.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 19:40:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Meaning the intel won't be reliable. It'd have to be verified by risking more lives by spying on someone reliable with the same info, so why go after the unreliable guy in the first place? |
BTW, this isn't true is we're talking about scientific secrets. They would just independently build their own device/experiment and see if it works or not. If they are after a specific bit of information they will know if they have gotten it. But you're right, if they just go on a fishing trip, they are unlikely to know if they've found out anything valuable or not.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/08/2009 19:41:17 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 20:00:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Because that was my original question. |
Well, no, it was about nursing homes for high-clearance people, not hospitals for them. I have little doubt that there exist hospital facilities and cleared doctors for people whose illnesses themselves would give away intelligence. For example, a person with radiation sickness might suggest that the building he works in contains dangerous amounts of radioactive material when it's ostensibly an ice-cream factory.
Allegedly, there are cleared medical personnel just in case the President blabs something while under anesthesia.
But an old-folks home? Presidents only get ten years of Secret Service protection after leaving office, anymore. The Director of the CIA gets no protection whatsoever, so far as I know, after he leaves his job. Same for the Joint Chiefs. These are people who writing books and giving speeches well into their dotage, so it's not like they're just vanishing.| I'm not trying to make any claim here, just investigate a possibility. |
I'm not making any claims, either, other than a claim to my own lack of evidence that any such facilities exist.
Thinking about it more, "our" guys keep tabs on "their" guys who are operating in the States and elsewhere. Much cheaper and less draconian than a top-secret nursing home would be a cut brake line or an "accidental" house fire if "their" guys start taking an inordinate interest in a particular retired scientist.
Maybe even fake a suicide when too much attention is gathering around a certain not-retired anthrax scientist.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2009 : 20:24:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, no, it was about nursing homes for high-clearance people, not hospitals for them. |
Right. It still is. I was simple pointing out the existence of military hospitals by way of analogy.
I didn't know that tidbit about Presidents under anesthesia, which urban legend or not, at least illustrates the sort of thing I was thinking about.
But an old-folks home? Presidents only get ten years of Secret Service protection after leaving office, anymore. The Director of the CIA gets no protection whatsoever, so far as I know, after he leaves his job. Same for the Joint Chiefs. These are people who writing books and giving speeches well into their dotage, so it's not like they're just vanishing.| I'm not trying to make any claim here, just investigate a possibility. |
I'm not making any claims, either, other than a claim to my own lack of evidence that any such facilities exist.
Thinking about it more, "our" guys keep tabs on "their" guys who are operating in the States and elsewhere. Much cheaper and less draconian than a top-secret nursing home would be a cut brake line or an "accidental" house fire if "their" guys start taking an inordinate interest in a particular retired scientist.
Maybe even fake a suicide when too much attention is gathering around a certain not-retired anthrax scientist.
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All good points. I wasn't considering anything too major or high security, just a place where retired government officials could feel at ease so to speak. Maybe a nice facility where everyone else there is also ex-government, an MP mans the front desk and the place is swept for bugs from time-to-time. But otherwise a regular old age home.
Now I'm curious what the government does provide. Are there even government staffed homes for retired military vets? Or do they just provide a pension that pays for veterans to place themselves in a private facility?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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scarlet_35
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 18:08:52 [Permalink]
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| I would guess instead of a home, they would just have home nurse aids? We met Author Jensen and his aid, it was pretty neat. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 21:59:45 [Permalink]
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About time I mentioned it: H.H., your idea is a wonderful one. Even if it's not a reflection of reality, it has a strong sense of credibility to it. It's so sensible, it's survived without any serious put-downs, even here.
I can imagine a wonderful dark comedy based on the premise of a group of these decrepit oldsters going out on one last secret mission.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/12/2009 22:02:55 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Top Secret Retirement Home
